No shame, no silence, no stopping

Lee Wochner: 
For half the people on Earth, their body is taboo. That’s because in many cultures, the word taboo literally means menstruation. And along with that comes the idea that women are impure, dirty, or sinful when they’re menstruating and should be set apart. When she was confronted with the realities of girls held out of school, or forced to squat over a piece of cardboard for days awaiting the end of their monthly flow, Celeste Mergens, founder of the nonprofit Days for Girls, decided to do something about it. Along the way of helping to empower girls and women in over 145 countries, including the United States, Celeste also learned powerful lessons about how to harness individual strengths and how to lead a life of meaning. 

 How can we shatter stigma? How can we empower each other to achieve more, especially in an age when each of us needs to do as much as we can? We’ll discuss that and much more on this episode of That’s What C Said. 

Jaclyn Uloth: 
Welcome to That’s What C! Said, the Counterintuity podcast, featuring interviews with leaders and doers who have helped to make our world a better place through their actions — and especially through marketing, communications, and embracing change. Here’s Lee Wochner. 

Lee Wochner: 
Celeste, it’s nice to meet you. Thank you for joining us here today. 

Celeste Mergens: 
I’ve so been looking forward to this. 

Lee Wochner: 
So there’s a lot I want to talk to you about but I want to start with Days for Girls. And I’m gonna ask lots of stupid questions, even though I did read the website and we’ve had some communication. What does Days for Girls do? 

Celeste Mergens: 
We help women, girls, and communities have access to something we don’t usually talk about: menstrual care resources and health education. And we’ve reached over 3.2 million women and girls in 145 countries. That’s how globally needed this is. 

Lee Wochner: 
Why is it taboo to talk about a natural human process in this way in so many cultures? 

Celeste Mergens: 
That is a golden question. Where did that come from? And I think the answer is long ago when resources weren’t available that would work very well. And everything we associate with blood is injury and illness. So you can see how, if you didn’t have the education to go with what this process is, that would have easily occurred. Did you know that in the islands, the word taboo actually means menstruation? 

So this is very systemic all over the globe. In fact, if you think about it, even where we are, wherever that is, this is occurring. And here’s the truth. I like to invite people to do the toilet paper test. If you put a package of toilet paper on a conveyor and there’s any difference between that at the grocery store and a package of menstrual care products, where did that come from? And could we make a new decision? 

Because truly, without periods, there would be no people, and it connects every one of us. So your question is truly golden. Where did that come from? And the consequences are pretty big. 

Lee Wochner: 
I have similar questions about racism, by the way. I mean, that’s the other one I can’t quite figure out either. I work on these things—these things that don’t seem to make any apparent sense that we still have to deal with in 2025. How did Days for Girls get started? 

Celeste Mergens: 
Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Agreed. 

Celeste Mergens: 
One of those surprising things you never saw coming. My background is in part global sustainable development, and I had the joy of working at an orphanage. I should say working with education primarily. I was helping a friend with her school and program, Andy Clay in Kenya. 

And here’s what happened. I was researching ways to address healthcare. We were looking at a program in the slums of Kibera, or informal housing. 

While there in Kenya near Nairobi, we were invited to go see an orphanage. I questioned whether that would be wise because I care so much about children, but I said yes because I believe in saying yes. We all said yes. We ended up at this incredible facility with education and other things that made me really want to help, mostly because I was smitten and felt alone with the kids. And so we started bringing sustainable solutions there. 

So imagine a fast forward 16 months later to incorporating it just when I came through town, helping with supporting sustainable solutions. And imagine that post-election violence occurred in 2008. I don’t know if you remember this—half a million people were displaced because of an election that was so close that both sides argued over what the real outcome should be. And it became so violent that over 4,000 children ended up at this facility that was frankly way too crowded at 420-something. 

So we started getting calls all the time that they needed—they needed calls for food, calls for many resources, blankets. And then came the day I got a literal phone call from the director that said, we’ve been out of food for two days. And I happen to be someone who knows what it’s like to go without food and even a place to call home as a kid. And so… 

So that hit me so deeply. I was searching for the answer of how to fundraise more when we had already done all we could. And I woke up at 2 30 in the morning with it going through my head. Have you asked what the girls are doing for feminine hygiene? I literally gassed, ran to the computer, asked, and their answer was nothing. They wait in their rooms. It turned out they were sitting on pieces of cardboard for days. I didn’t know how I never asked that question, right? I started working on how we could answer that question in ways that would allow them to have what they needed month after month and not just one time single use. And as we did that process, we learned so much. But the first lesson they taught was when the first girls came through the doors, their cheer still echoing from the tin roof overhead and said, thank you so much because before you came, we had to let them use us to leave the room and go to class. And I was hoping that didn’t mean what I feared it meant, but it turned out they were being exploited in exchange for a single disposable pad. And that’s the moment Days for Girls was born. 

Lee Wochner: 
So a disposable pad is actually an artifact of freedom. 

Celeste Mergens: 
Well said. And absolutely, having what you need matters so much in it. Different people like different things, but honestly, in this setting and so many others, there’s no place to throw things away and no continuous access. So making something that could be counted on month after month that was just washable rather than disposable was part of our program from the beginning. 

And education, because you need to know how to care for them well and, frankly, knowing what a period is a stigma and shame buster. And the results have been global. Who would have guessed something so seemingly small is such an important conversation to have? And I’m so grateful to be part of it. 

Lee Wochner: 
Years ago, we worked with a nonprofit that helps kids with kidney issues. And so if you need dialysis three times a week and you’re there for half the day, you’re not going to school; you’re homeschooled. 

And so these kids never got a prom. They never got a high school prom, and the organization would throw a high school prom for them. It was just an incredible uplifting experience, and Jack Black came. He was just a terrific guy and entertained the kids—really a really good guy. 

And I’d never thought about it. I’d never thought about, well, if you have kidney issues and you need dialysis, you’re not going to school. And now what I learn more about from you is, of course, if you have no access to sanitary products, then you are kind of hiding out in a hut somewhere waiting for that natural process to be over, and you’re missing out on all sorts of opportunities. 

Celeste Mergens: 
Absolutely. Education, work, honestly dignity, and opportunities of all kinds. And more is the stigma, right? That you yourself—how can you not believe you’re lesser than when you’re not able to leave and interact? 

And worse, in so many communities, you’re considered untouchable. Breaking that stigma starts with education and conversations that aren’t about shame, but rather invitations to change with solutions that work. It’s been amazing to watch how universally around the world the invitation is key. 

Lee Wochner: 
In the time since Days for Girls was founded, what has happened with the organization? Where has the—and how long ago was it founded? 

Celeste Mergens: 
In 2008, so 15 years ago. 

Lee Wochner: 
Okay, so in those 16, 17 years, what has happened? 

Celeste Mergens: 

Yeah, it’s actually been phenomenal to watch. It’s been important to us that we were able to to not only hear what they needed for design, our design has been through 30 iterations of our product is washable, adjust to their need, breaks through stigma and shame. It’s colorful. It’s soft. That isn’t the my genius. That’s the genius of the power of we listening and innovating with feedback from those you serve and serve with. We’ve also seen how it was so important not only to include from the beginning local leaders in the education, in the conversations, in owning the solution, but also to be part of the leadership of how things happen where they are. So we’ve had enterprises as part of our model since 2010. 

And this is the opportunity for local leaders to make them as a social venture. They’re not getting rich in it, but it’s allowed them to keep making the products and making them available while being leaders in the conversation and shattering stigma advocating for menstrual wellness. This has been such a powerful alliance to do this around the world. So as we’ve grown and progressed, it’s been paying attention to what the needs are, what the conversations are. Our curriculum has been important from day one and it’s been translated, last I heard, to more than 26 languages. So it’s been, it’s been a really a lesson in failing forward, learning from the things that weren’t working and really expanding on the things that do all along the way, inviting people to join in. And now, as I said, we’ve reached more than 3 million women and girls and 145 countries. 

Lee Wochner:  
That’s amazing. let me ask you an omnibus question. How does Days for Girls do what it does? What’s the process here? 

Celeste Mergens: 
We incorporate really two arms of reaching people. One is local leaders who are giving education and making days for girls’ kits, or the other part of it is volunteers all over the world who make washable days for girls’ kits and connect with organizations that need them and also send them a lot of refugee work is happening through them right now where they’re able to send them to people who are in refugee circumstances. And so these two arms come together to make sure that people are being met, not in a way that’s from the outside, but is in a way that invites joint advancement of making sure people have what they need. 

Lee Wochner:
So you had the founding impetus for this. I want to ask you about the transition. When did you transition in an executive director and a management team? Because I see there’s a whole team behind it now. Again, I’ve been to the website, did some research. When did that happen and how did that come about? 

Celeste Mergens: 
About 2010, we were being featured in O Magazine, we were growing exponentially, and I realized that we couldn’t keep reinventing the wheel to grow with it. We needed to create, if you will, Red Cross scalability while being manageable on a dime budget, dime-sized budget. So we needed infrastructure and support. It couldn’t just be me. It had to be managing all the volunteers and all the advocacy and all the messaging. And so we started bringing in people to hold specific pieces. And as that grew, about two years ago, I had the gift of seeing one of our amazing team members, Tiffany Larson, transition into being the CEO in my stead. This is important because I had a few things happening in my personal life that I got to address. 

And also the organization can prove that it can keep going and is more than me, which it really has beautifully done. I found that as you develop an organization that from early on, sustainability needs to be part of it, which means secession needs to be part of that. Do I mean me stepping away? No, I mean every role having recorded playbooks of what they’ve done historically and what they’re doing now and inviting team members to keep that up to date and share where they’re at and what they do and being flexible and tenacious and making sure the org is prioritizing the things that are making the biggest difference because we can’t be everything to everyone being able to assess with monitoring and evaluation what is making the biggest impact and how do we lean in together to that. That to me is part of making sure that succession can happen successfully. Say that five times fast. And I have been able to be part of that myself. It’s been, and I don’t claim that it’s not difficult because Days for Girls is something that I’ve witnessed all over the world is phenomenal. I love the people I’ve had the joy working with and working for working alongside. So imagine having to step back and not knowing every little detail anymore. That’s a hard thing to do. And I’m really grateful that it’s been successful. 

Lee Wochner:  
Well, you used two words that really struck me and that I would encourage everyone running an organization and particularly a nonprofit organization to think about. And the one word was playbooks and the other word was succession. And you can’t have good succession without a playbook. And you may call it a process manual, you may call it our process or how we do these things. But when you have a playbook of how things are set up, managed, orchestrated, run, then someone else can step into the role and you can have succession. And I’ve run a number of nonprofits and I’ve sat on a number of nonprofit boards. I just got elected to another one in November. And it’s important to know how things will function, how the culture operates, how the management works, and to not rest on any one individual and frequently, particularly the founder, because if something happens to her or him, and one of those things that could happen is burnout, the whole organization suffers and certainly the impact on the mission will suffer. So those are important and linked words that you use. And I hope everybody listening to this takes note of that. Playbooks and succession will help guarantee your ongoing success for your organization. 

Celeste Mergens: 
I love that you’re pointing that out. And I would underscore new that even keeping historical context for your decisions is important. We made this design choice because we chose not to do this because, and I’m not talking about volumes, just little notes. I kept mine in Trello, which is an organizational system, literally tiny little paragraph cards of this decision because, because what if you are hit by a bus, you know, having the ability for someone else to look back and go, this is our why is I believe important for understanding how to keep things going and not make mistakes we already learned from. 

Lee Wochner:  
Because I’m an impatient person, and that’s something I struggle with, throughout my life I’ve often just jumped into things. And lately, I like to think I’ve gained more wisdom because I’ve done the things you’re talking about. And now I keep extensive, we use process tracking here, of course, project management. And then I have a lengthy Evernote file of all sorts of notes and things that syncs with all of my devices. And I refer to it constantly. And I think back to all of the years that I would just make it up all over again every quarter, let’s say. And it was lunacy. And I lost so much time and brain power and energy doing that. So I herald you again for saying playbooks and succession. Good takeaways. So three million girls and women, 45 countries. I mean, that’s amazing. 

Celeste Mergens: 
145. 

Lee Wochner:  
100, well, I’m going to give you another 100, 145 entries. Some people probably didn’t even realize there were 145 countries. Now you’re saying that there are women and girls in all of those countries. Is that the, okay, good. 

Celeste Mergens: 
Yeah. And here’s what’s significant. One of them is the United States, where we do a significant amount of work. Everywhere that a family is choosing or an individual is choosing between food and hygiene, food’s going to win. Fuel in your car to get to the next interview for a job is going to win over a pad. So all over the world, making sure that these are cost effective, that people have access to the thing that works for them. We actually serve all over the world. 

Lee Wochner:
People have a hard time sometimes getting a takeaway from large numbers. It’s like, well, it’s that number. It’s like the grains of sand on the beach, right? So can you share with us a story or two about the impact that Days for Girls is having on individuals? Do you have any individual success stories you could share with us? 

Celeste Mergens: 
Absolutely. Two of my favorites. One is a young girl named Gotzu. So when we reached her school in Zimbabwe, the Days for Girls leaders from Zimbabwe and I got to be there as well. We had a very small window of interacting at that school. The roads made it difficult, so it was an even smaller window. And we had resources to make 200 Days for Girls kits and to deliver the education for them. Of course, when we arrived, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds were waiting. The headmaster had to explain, these are the 200, but now we only had time to do 75. It was heartbreaking to watch the other girls go, me, choose me. And the team was not able to return for another four months, but they left the fabric as token. We’re going to be back. We promised we’ll be back. When they got back, they were assured that the fabric was gone. They asked, what? Where did it go? We can’t help unless we have this material. And they explained that they had already been made into days for girls washable kits. And they said, who could possibly do that after watching it only once? And it was 12-year-old Gotu. I have a photo of her. She’s got this pink striped shirt. And they asked her, how did you do that? What was the result? How did that feel? And the thing that I will never forget is her response was, I am no longer an orphan. I am a leader of women. 

The impact of making programs that remind people that they matter, everyday matters, their health matters, that they are not cursed, but in fact significant, that without periods there would be no people and giving them a way to stand and be the leader is transformative. There was also a story of a woman that I met in Northern Uganda. Now this woman was a little shy and I got to ask her, how is your Days for Girls Enterprise going? change been for you? What are the struggles? What’s working? Always we’re asking questions that help us improve our program, help us to underscore not only sharing their story with those who are supporting the program, but also and their victories, but also what can we learn? So as we sat there, she says, my children or people know who I am was her first response. And they listened to me. My children can go to school and we eat every day. Now I don’t know about you, but that’s like the exact opposite of what I expected her to respond, would expect the order of those things to be. I found it truly significant that the first thing she mentioned was being seen. People know who I am and they listen to me. And the second thing wasn’t food, but her children’s education. And over and over again, we have seen how important it is again to offer the opportunity for them to step into leadership. Now, some of these countries, this is so taboo to speak of. Like they’re taking a chance to even speak of it. And I have so many stories about that and how it mattered enough to risk speaking up. And they didn’t just speak up, they become true leaders advocating. And last. 

There’s a girl and there’s so many, but there’s a woman, excuse me, a woman in Kenya who, when she was a young student, was asked to come to the chalkboard. She was one of their brightest minds. She’s phenomenal woman. And she refused to stand up. She didn’t tell the teacher, I have a menstrual stain, but the problem was she didn’t have what she needed for her period. So she stayed seated. He slapped her and still she stayed seated. 

And when it was all said and done, she turned her skirt around, put her books over the stain and didn’t come back to school until this was over. Now her menstrual cycle was keeping her from going to test school and this bright future went from scholarships to struggle. So you can imagine when she heard about Days for Girls, she started an enterprise and that enterprise has now reached more than 20,000 people in her community. works with the chiefs, the leaders, people coming from all over the world. And she advocates in such a strong, beautiful, joyful way, because she’s like, this is something we can change. And it’s changing in our lifetime. And so all over, we have seen girls and women and communities going from shame to celebrating and from lost opportunity, dignity and engagement to being able to have way more confidence. It’s been phenomenal. And again, when I was a little girl, I thought I’d be a scientist. I studied engineering and I, or a musician, maybe a writer, but I never thought I would be a global leader, leader administration in sex. That didn’t get on the list at all, let alone how important it is to have these conversations and solutions. 

Celeste Mergens: 
I’m constantly amazed that it’s the equivalent of the suffragettes. We didn’t get to stand up and ask for the vote, but this one, we can change. And it really starts with our own thoughts and mindset about actually, what are we ashamed of? 

Lee Wochner:  

Your story reminds me of a story, I don’t know, not terribly related, but somewhat related, about mortification and shame. When I was in high school, there was a boy, a friend of mine, who the other kids were teasing him and talking about needles and blood, because they knew he was sensitive to that, talking about needles and blood. I was guest teaching the class that day he passed out because he had such a thing about the idea of needles and blood. He passed out and he never came back to school. Never came back to school and probably most of us have been shamed and mortified at some point in our lives and you can either take that and build something out of it or you can lead that life of fear and being discovered and being mortified. 

Lee Wochner:  
And that’s just an amazing story that you told because it really registers with me. It’s just horrific that for such a natural and simple reason, this girl had to be shamed. It’s terrible. 

Lee Wochner:  
Yeah, so let me ask you a couple more questions about this. Are there any mistakes you’ve learned from through Days for Girls? Because they say if you’ve never made any mistakes, you’ve never grown and learned anything, right? Are there any mistakes you’ve learned from? 

Celeste Mergens: 
Oh, have I ever, I mean, where do we want to start? One of them was early, early on. I wasn’t worried about credit. I wasn’t like so many of us have found things. It’s not about us. It’s about the results, right? So I wasn’t worried about, so I put Days for Girls programs under a friend’s nonprofit. It’s like, I don’t care. I mean, you know. 

Celeste Mergens: 
So it was growing and growing. mean, other countries were coming on board. wasn’t until Dates for Girls New Zealand said we’re registering as nonprofit. I’m like, whoa, probably should do that. We were already impeccable with our accounting, impeccable with all the standard practices. I had been a founder of an organization before. So all of that was done. It didn’t seem important. And I learned actually that legal stuff is so important. It seems like quote stuff, but if you do not, claim your name, someone can take it. If you do not set up these solid infrastructures, you can’t apply for important grants for the years until the number of years tick off. We wasted years of opportunity for some pretty large opportunities. We were invited to participate in because I delayed registering by two years. So the truth is that those important housekeeping things are truly important. 

Celeste Mergens: 
And I wish that I’d done it earlier, but it is what it is. And I did learn that lesson. Another thing that I learned was a little more recent. you heard earlier, our design for our products was learned by failing forward, if you will. Like that didn’t work, how else could it work better? Really an inquiry, right? It’s not really failure as long as you learn from it. And so have that tenacious flexibility that we will learn and not be invested in the way, but keep growing. But this one was, as you’re a founder, you keep being asked to pass some of your hats, your responsibilities to others. And now this one, now this one. And I share pretty early on because we built a volunteer network that was and is astonishing what they would do. The hazard to that is that you can’t tell them to stop their shift they were working harder than any employee could ever be asked to do. I had to build in protocols to ask them to stop, to ask them, how are you doing on taking time for you? One of them was an engineer by day, engineer manager by day, and did chapter leadership for the entire program, more hours for that than her paid professional heavy responsibility. So this was ongoing that I needed to remind people that our leaders who are volunteers were not less committed, but more committed. So that was the thing to find that balance between honoring the volunteers and honoring those that came on board and making sure we had a culture, not a rush rush, hurry, hurry, bit of mindful we’re in this for the long run. That was hard because it wasn’t my way. My way is go for it all out. So that was a lesson learned. And the other one, a little more recent was as we passed along the hats, we came to the day when it was some of my favorite pieces. It was programming, it was communication. This is my wheelhouse, right? And you’re passing those to very talented people. Here’s the mistake I made that I’m really grateful I learned from. I, in a desire to show that I was empowering them, honoring their leadership and strength and stepping out, didn’t widen the circle as I always had to make room for others, but stepped out of the circle. Like go ahead, go ahead, elevate her, elevate them, elevate, you know, make sure everybody sees them. But I didn’t remember that don’t ever shrink yourself to make someone else feel bigger. It doesn’t work. Doesn’t help your leadership. It doesn’t help their leadership. It doesn’t have them have more confidence in you, the organizations or in themselves. And I had to learn, don’t shrink yourself. Keep showing up and trust them to hold it even in all of your strength. That they can show up in their strength because you are not afraid to show up in all of yours. I had never shrunk myself, but at that juncture, because these were my favorites and COVID was happening, I allowed that. Does this make sense? 

Lee Wochner:  
Oh, 100 % 100 % and it really, and it really lands with me. Yeah, shrinking yourself, I mean, you’re removing the power that you brought to the conversation and to the end to the capability. And sometimes I have made that mistake. And sometimes you’re you’re in trying to elevate others, you per you diminish yourself and you elevate them above their capability, which by the way, I think is called the Peter principle and no one benefits from it. As opposed to if you’re a strong but welcoming leader, you welcome others to achieve and aspire as well. hats off to you for having the level of self-awareness to recognize that and to learn from it. So we’re gonna take a short break here, but when we come back, Celeste and I are gonna talk about a whole raft of other things that are related to this. We’re gonna talk about making an impact. 

Jaclyn Uloth: 
Creating awareness is crucial to your success: It drives donations, strengthens supporters, increases your impact, and so much more. 

Whether you’re recruiting donors, funders, board members, volunteers or others, it begins with telling them who you are, what you do, and why they should care, in a systemic way. 

A solid marketing strategy addresses positioning and messaging, social media, email, press releases, blogging, and other ways you’re going to put the word out. 

For a free assessment of your communications, contact us through our website at counterintuity.com, or send us an email at info@counterintuity.com. We’re always ready to help. 

Lee Wochner:  
And we’re back with Celeste Mergens, founder of Days for Girls and someone who is also a guide and a coach and an inspirational change maker. During our break, Celeste was teeing off our conversation about mortification. And Celeste, if I understand you correctly, you have a process that actually deals with that, is that right? 

Celeste Mergens: 
I really do. I found it in part because of the awareness that there is between a moment when something happens to us and triggers us and our response that we often lose to the first responder of our emotions, our amygdala. I call it the lizard brain because it scurries under rocks and pulls us under with it, right? It’s just the first response. And so one of the things once I’ve realized that that I tried this three step technique I call mind the gap on was a moment I was deeply mortified. So I started on light touch things, but it still had captured some of my energy in this trauma moment, right? So here it is. It was in junior high, that time when we are deeply skilled at being mortified, the way we will seldom replicate in our lifetimes. And in this moment, I walked out of the restroom into the hallway of my junior high or middle school. There were lockers nearby and there are these two gentlemen or students giggling and snickering. And I’m like, what’s funny? I’m looking around and the girl behind me said, your skirt is tucked up in your tights. I’m like, mortified, ran back into the restroom, waited until the bell rang and then some to make sure no one was out there and then scurried off and held that, you know, shame. So going back to that moment, I could retrieve that energy using three steps. So the first is to pick up more details of the scene. So this just requires us to kind of go back to the moment, feel it a little bit. Now, these moments, we don’t want to feel that feeling, but here’s the truth. If you’ll just hold it for like less than 20 seconds you can actually release it. So it’s worth the investment of taking that scary step of feeling this emotion again. So feel the emotion as if it had just happened and then bring more detail. So in this case, pink tile going into the bathroom, pink subway tile, there was lockers back here, the two guys here, the other students, the girl behind me, I and the floor was checkered. So what’s interesting is a lot of traumatic moments we do have all these details stored. I mean, it’s almost like it’s more sticky and vibrant. You see it because it has that trauma moment too. In fact, you can identify them as that kind of thing, that kind of visceral remembrance. so, so then the next thing I bring is going to sound trite, but stay with me a minute. Gratitude, bring gratitude. Now why am I saying be grateful if this thing happened to you? 

Lee Wochner:  
Mm-hmm. OK. Right. 

Celeste Mergens: 
No, that’s like master level, right? And there’s some things that come on, really, really difficult things happen in this world that are unjust and horrible. So, so no, not gratitude because it happened necessarily, but rather gratitude for something, anything in this situation. Why gratitude? Because these moments kind of have a feeling that it’s got you squashed, especially because the thing that responded was this first responder that interprets everything as negative. So nothing about it feels safe. By bringing gratitude in, it’s like you’re now on top of it and there is a piece that is safe. Does that make sense? So now you have a little more emotional safety as you explore this. So in this case, it was, hey, this girl told me I could have walked around like that all the rest of the day. So I can, in the moment, kind of feel like I’m there and turn around and go, thank you so much. Because I would have walked, I just really appreciate that you helped me. So now the third element is to bring the wisdom of now. So deep breath, why do I know now that I didn’t know then that I can bring, and this could be 10 minutes after a thing happens, right? But why do I know now? Well, I know that I have like an 85 % chance that if something like that happened, I’d probably go, my goodness. And I would just, flick the skirt out, pat my bum and say, I am so glad you told me that is so embarrassing. It is funny, but also so embarrassing. Can’t even believe that happened. And, and thank you. Thank you for telling me, Hey, see you later. And walk off. Now, if you do that now, they’re not going to think, laugh, laugh, chuckle, chuckle. They’re going to be like, Whoa, now that’s confidence. And I wish I had that. Right. And I can acknowledge there’s like 85 % chance that would be my response today. That’s amazing. And it can bring that knowledge to this moment of, all right, it happened. There’s actually some things to be grateful for. I’m all right. I survived the whole thing. have greater wisdom now. then just close the moment. We can go back and reframe things that have happened to us. 

Lee Wochner: 
And it’s better to own the moments in your life rather than for them to own you. 

Celeste Mergens: 
Absolutely. And otherwise they sneak up on us. They do like sneak up sideways, smack down. And you’re like, where did that feeling come from? Why do I feel so disturbed right now? And it likely connects if there’s no logical reason to something that’s happened in the past. So the more we can own, the more we can take back the decision between something happening in our interpretation. Let’s be honest. There are people that would have something like that and go, I can’t even believe it and walk off. And then others of us would be mortified by different things. So it’s an individual exploration. 

Lee Wochner:  
One of the other things you talk about is how to live a life on purpose. How does one do that? How does one live a life on purpose? 

Celeste Mergens: 
Hmm when things happen to us when we’re observing if you can be present and you can be aware of The decisions you do have they may be small Conscious decisions that don’t seem big but they add up to a lot. So in other words if a friend Switching on you a friend just learned that her brother returned to his home expecting it to be burnt down and in their neighborhood in the LA fires, his was the only one not burned down. Now this was very difficult for him. He felt like, am going to look my neighbors in the eyes ever again? Why did mine get, there was survivor guilt. So when things happen like that all along the road, if we can shift to what we can do, feel the feeling, breathe through it and say, what can I learn here? Am I responsible? or not, where’s the truth here? And then look at, okay, what can I do? And pay attention because you don’t have to do it all. None of us are required, expected, or even can do all the things that would be good and beautiful in this world. We get to choose the thing that calls to us. So we can choose to help in small ways. Maybe he goes by the first responders and brings some Gatorade. Maybe and but maybe he also feels like he’s gonna start a new neighborhood watch for rebuilding where everybody shares best practices for contractors and who knows But what we can do to live purposefully is pay attention to those feelings that say you can go deeper or those feelings that say This isn’t mine, but I can support those it does belong to and and just keep saying yes because the result of saying yes to the things that are authentically important to you is you’re going to end up in places you can’t even imagine were part of your journey. The result of feeling like you have to do everything that you feel guilty for not doing enough that you also should be, should be, should be, should be is you do not have the room to stand in the places that you were uniquely built to create a shift with. 

Living purposefully is showing up with as much gratitude, intentionality, and awareness of the things happening around you. It’s amazing what happens in your life if you can strive for that place without judging yourself, without shooting on yourself, but rather being able to say, I’m here, I’m now, I’m ready. 

Lee Wochner:  
The philosopher Seneca wrote a lot about intentionality and the power of yes and the power of no. No, thank you. I appreciate that, but no, no, I’m not going to do that. I appreciate that, but I’m going to stay home and write is one of mine or whatever, right? Because others have their lives and you wanna be a positive part of them, but you have your own life as well and your own decision-making. And I’ve had a lot of usefulness there in terms of perception, character, and decision making. And I try to be a person who recognizes that other people have some difficult path I can’t see and to try to give them the benefit and not add to anybody’s troubles. But at the same time, I have my own course that I’m following and I can’t let anyone impede me on it. 

Celeste Mergens: 
Absolutely. 

Lee Wochner:  
Why is it important to be inspirational? I mean, you’re someone who I find very inspirational. And I think there’s value in that. Why is it important to be inspirational? 

Celeste Mergens: 
I think that we all have hardships. It’s just a given of this life, right? And we also have a choice. We can make it harder for others, sometimes because we had a hard time. It’s easy to go, yeah, well, I’m going to show the world, right? Or we can choose to make the world more filled with gratitude, more aware, more present, and to choose to listen as much as you share. By that I mean, care enough about the people you run into that you’re more interested than worried about being interesting. When you do that, you can feel that prompting that actually if I do say this, it might help. And don’t come from a place of I want to change everybody, but rather a place of honoring the wisdom of everyone you run into. And that ability to be curious not just about the beauty in the world that’s sometimes cloaked in hardship, but also about them and about how this random bumping into each other might leave them with more light, might leave them with more hope, or just frankly you can learn something from them. Be curious, be willing to be curious. In my experience, it’s not about trying to be inspiring. Honestly, it’s about being authentic, sorry, and recognizing something really important to me, and that’s this. We all matter. There is no one people or person that has the key to building a stronger tomorrow. I sincerely believe it takes all of us to make the beautiful tapestry of our future. And so why wouldn’t we help each other? Because our threads are directly connected. 

Celeste Mergens: 
And the joy of what can happen with the power of we, instead of focusing on the power of me, is exponential, profound, and far greater than any of us can even comprehend. 

Lee Wochner:  
How can people stay resilient in the face of defeat? 

Celeste Mergens:  
Ooh, so this is a tough one for us. I’ve been blessed that I’ve gotten to face and overcome a lot of hardship. And I have to say, this is going to sound trite, but it’s a choice. We get to look at things with that word again, curiosity, as to how it will turn out and choose what we want to focus on. My husband was hit by a drunk driver and just had mirror 11 in 2022. And my knowing that exact date tells you this was not good. We are so fortunate he survived it. The driver ran a stop sign and T-boned them. And the first responders didn’t think that they were alive when they reached the scene. And amazingly, they did survive. And he was left with a brain injury and the consequences of that. So this phenomenal human being who’s my best friend, who’s my, we’ve been married 42 years, is a, just a pillar of strength in my life. Things reversed for a while, right? And my path had to reverse. And I found this, that even in that, we have a decision to make. I can look at it as the loss, or I can look at it as the game. And when I’m looking at not the gap, but the game, here’s what I see. I get more time with the love of my life. I get to recognize he survived. I get to find ways to, if an accident can trigger massive health challenges, then you can untrigger it. And we believe that and we’re exploring ways. And I get to change the way I live my days because I can be at his side. 

I get to just relish the gift of more time with this person I adore and the changes that have happened for me. Sorry. You get to decide how you’re going to interpret if you’re cursed, if you’re, there’s so many blessings that have happened as a result. believe everything that happens to us, we can’t control them. We can’t, but we can control what we choose to believe of it. Now you could say it’s Pollyanna to say, you get more time with him. No, I get more time with him. And this is a decision you can make. I look at him and when he’s discouraged, I say, Don Murgans, I married 110 % man and 30 % of you is more than most people could get. I am so lucky I’m married to you. 

Lee Wochner:  
That’s beautiful. That is absolutely beautiful. So about 10, 12 years ago, I was driving south on the five freeway here in Southern California. And I had a feeling and I looked up in the mirror and a wild eyed man was speeding toward my car at top speed. So I had a feeling and he hit me full force and jammed my brand new BMW into the barrier, into the divider, the K rail, and shoved my wheel under the car. And he kept going and he blew out both of his left tires and there’s a shower of sparks and flames and he’s still driving down the freeway. And later, Highway Patrol and Los Angeles Police Department caught him and he got in a fist fight with LAPD. And he was literally out of his mind. He had gone off his medicine and a young man, 29 years old and he was on his way to the county hospital to get a test to prove he was not the antichrist. And I got out of the car and I was shaking. And this doesn’t make me a heroic figure. I’m just telling you what happened. 30 seconds, had immense gratitude because I could have been dead. I could have been horribly injured. I do have an injury that continues, but and troubles me, but it could have been far worse. it sailed through my mind every blessing and benefit I have in my life. And I love life, and I felt so much gratitude for it. So I don’t wish I was hit by that poor person who went off as medicine, but on the other hand, I did gain something from it and I may be a better person because of it. And it’s easy for me to say, and I’m sure sorry to hear that your husband was in that accident, but you and I seem to be of a similar mindset about a number of things. And I do know the power of waking up every morning with gratitude. 

Celeste Mergens: 
Absolutely. It’s huge. I’m sorry you went through that. 

Lee Wochner:  
Celeste, you, well, you know, every day I’m reminded of the troubles of so many people close to me and people I don’t know around the world and mine are nothing to compare with that. I, yeah. Do you have any further advice you’d like to share with our listeners? I mean, I seriously could talk to you for days, weeks and months agreed, same. I could go on four days sharing how grateful I am and how truth is that we all are meant to make an immense difference. We are. And that doesn’t depend on where you were born, what circumstances you have gone through, not gone through, what you have accomplished, not accomplished, your age, your situation, none of that. 

It just matters that you show up authentically because each of us is truly unique. And one of the things I like to point out is it is not our strengths that qualify us. I truly believe it is our weaknesses. Why do I say that? Because it gives you empathy. gives you understanding of problems. It helps you understand the intricacies of something that could be better because you’re up against it. It gives you, if you allow it, the incentive to try to strengthen. What reason would we have to try to strengthen if we had every strength and no weaknesses? And importantly, it gives you and I a chance to come together like puzzle pieces. If you have two sheets of paper adjacent to each other, they’re not going to stay together. But one has a notch and others, then if each person has their own unique shape, now it comes together in a puzzle that builds a greater whole. 

I believe if we could get curious about what strings could become of our weaknesses, be aware of the weaknesses that comes in our strings because it gives us blind spots and be curious about what could happen if we showed up fearlessly in every way we could to connect truly with others. I can tell you that it can be profound, global and way bigger than any of us could imagine. 

Lee Wochner:  
So what’s the best way for people to connect with you if they want to reach out? 

Celeste Mergens: 
You can connect through social media. can direct message me. I am always happy to respond. You can also find Days for Girls programs through our website, daysforgirls.org. And email me, celeste at daysforgirls.org. 

Lee Wochner:  
It’s been a real pleasure getting to spend this time with you. Thank you. 

Celeste Mergens: 
Thank you. 

Jaclyn Uloth: 
Thanks for listening! That’s What C! Said is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. Please like and follow the show. Visit Counterintuity.com to learn more.