Defending Public Justice with Lori James-Townes

Lori James Townes:
I think that we’ve seen a growth in the importance, at least acknowledging the importance of communications. But public defenders don’t have that. They don’t have anybody, they may not have anybody to get out front of the story. They don’t have anybody to pitch a story to get the community to know about what they stand for and why they’re important.

Lee Wochner:
For Lori James Townes, on every day at the office, somewhere in the US, someone’s freedom hangs in the balance. In a nation where everyone charged with a crime is guaranteed a defense, Lori serves as the executive director of the National Association for Public Defense, an organization helping public defenders across the nation represent their clients. In the 19th century, America’s prison system was the envy of Europe.

In 1835, French historian and political scientist, Alexis de Tocqueville famously wrote about American democracy and our system of rehabilitation. And while doing so, noted that an increase in criminal convictions doesn’t necessarily indicate an increase in crime. In the 200 years since then, one could argue that America has gone into the incarceration business.

As prisons have become privatized and profit oriented, more people have wound up in them, so much so that now the United States has far more people in prison than any other nation. How did we get here? What can we do about it? And what goes into running a nonprofit organization with such an important and daunting mission? That’s what we’ll find out today on That’s What C Said.

Jaclyn Uloth:
Welcome to the podcast that lightens the tension when things sort of get hard…
That’s What C! Said, the Counterintuity podcast, featuring interviews with leaders and doers who have helped to make our world a better place through their actions — and especially through marketing, communications, and embracing change. Here’s host Lee Wochner.

Lee Wochner:
Hi Lori, welcome to the podcast.

Lori James Townes:
Thank you, Lee. Thanks for having me.

Lee Wochner:
Well, it’s a pleasure to get to spend some more time with you. You know, I have some awareness of what you do, and I’m excited to have you doing it and excited to spread the word.

Lori James Townes:
Yes.

Lori James Townes:
Thank you, thank you, we greatly appreciate it as well.

Lee Wochner:
So let me ask, let me start by asking some baseline questions so that people just have an understanding. What does the National Association for Public Defense do?

Lori James Townes:
So it is a national membership organization, and we provide training and support and community and advocacy for public defender professionals. I think one of the niches that many folks don’t realize is that whereas some organizations that support public defenders or attorneys really focus on the attorneys, and NAPD has really grown to focus on what I call the full defense team. So everyone who works within a public defender office or system and provide support, advocacy, or representation to our clients.

Lee Wochner:
Okay. And how many public defenders do you represent?

Lori James Townes:
So our membership, the makeup of our membership is about 28,000 members across the country. We have members from every state and, you know, jurisdiction, including Puerto Rico and Guam, and in different ways that we support members. So some of our members are statewide, public defender systems from statewide, all the way down to individual members. And so it’s very diverse.

Lee Wochner:
Okay, and so I keep saying public defenders, but you’re really saying people who work in a public defense office as part of the team, right?

Lori James Townes:
It’s the same for us. Whereas, you know, I think historically public defenders have been synonymous with just the attorney, but we try to use the word public defenders to be universal for everyone who touches the client or the communities that we serve. But when you say public defenders, I’m thinking of everyone. So no need to shift at all how you’re saying it.

Lee Wochner:
Well, that’s exactly what I was checking in about. So thank you. And so just again to ask the baseline questions, what does a public defender do?

Lori James Townes:
Yes. So the attorneys that serve as public defenders represent people who would otherwise not have representation in the court of law. These are folks who cannot afford private counsel. And so Gideon versus Wainwright gave the authority to make sure that everyone who is charged with a crime in our country has a right to be defended and public defenders members of our society who can otherwise again could not afford private counsel.

Lee Wochner:
And again, now I’m just asking, I think, patently stupid questions, but you know, but you know, you have an awareness of what people think or ask or wonder, right? So here you go. Why does everyone deserve a defense?

Lori James Townes:
Yeah, well first of all, the Constitution says so, that’s one thing, that’s the legal answer that everyone has a right to be defended in the court of law. But secondly, people could lose, there’s so much at stake when people do not have representation in court. It could be anything from losing your license for a year, to losing your freedom for life, right? And so, and there’s intricacies to every profession, the law specifically. And so individuals should not be forced or made to go into court and represent themselves in a system which they don’t understand and have not been trained. So they need the intercessory legal support to be able to navigate that system for them.

Lee Wochner:
And as I recall, it turned out that Gideon of Gideon v. Wainwright was not guilty. Once he actually had better defense, he was not guilty. What about defenders, here you go, what about defenders whom the public think are quote, obviously guilty, close quote. What about those folks?

Lori James Townes:
You know, that’s such a myth. And I think that, you know, it’s weird that people forget that people are innocent until proven guilty, which is another reason from your previous question, why everyone deserves to be defended. Right. Because if we’re assuming that people are guilty, if we don’t let me put it the other way, if we don’t remind ourselves that people are innocent until proven guilty, then folks will actually just be condemned from the onset. And so.

The public does believe until it happens to them, that if someone is arrested, then someone is charged, that they’re obviously guilty, right? The other thing is, and we’ll probably talk about this later in our conversation, but the other thing is who’s presumed guilty and innocent, right? We know for sure that people with wealth, people of a certain race, economic, and socioeconomic status, for some reason we continue to remind ourselves like, oh, remember that they’re innocent, until they’re proven guilty, but when it’s folks of other communities or representation, then the narrative shifts. And so the public may think that there is no obviously guilty client, right? There’s no usual suspect, as they say. And so, you know, again, everyone deserves to be defended and everyone deserves their day in court.

Lee Wochner:
One of the things that I like to remark upon from history and that I shared with you when I first met you a couple of years ago, and I know you’re aware of this, is that John Adams, who was one of the founders of the nation and wound up being the second president, defended the British after the Boston massacre because he said, everyone deserved a defense. It’s a cornerstone of democracy. And somehow we don’t always seem to know that, that everyone deserves a defense.

Lori James Townes:
Yes, absolutely. And even folks who are guilty, right? Like so the obviously guilty versus the not obviously guilty. You know, one of the things that one of the reasons that I continue to do this work is because there’s so many external collateral issues in people’s lives that really do impact the decisions that they make. And so those folks, even if guilty, perhaps guilty, but deserving or
needing substance use disorder services, guilty but needs housing. So somebody could be arrested for loitering, but they’re homeless, right? And the shelter was full. So I mean, all of these things that when we’re not directly impacted, we have a privilege of not understanding and not knowing.

Lee Wochner:
Yeah, mitigating circumstances. And, you know, so we may, and then there’s the, what I would call the scale of justice. So I was a literature major, and I think of Les Miserables, where he was pursued for 10 years for having stolen a loaf of bread, which I think most of us would just let it go. The guy needed a loaf of bread, and the justice system in the novel pursued him for 10 years. So I did a little research, And before I say this, let me remind everybody that 150 years ago, Alexis de Tocqueville said the US was the model of the prison system because we rehabilitated people. So here are some current stats. Top 10 countries with the most people in prison. Number 10 is Iran, number seven is Turkey, number five is Russia, China is number two, and the United States is number one. With almost 2.1 million people in prison. China has four and a quarter times as many people as we do, but 400,000 fewer people in prison. Lori, why is the US number one in incarceration?

Lori James Townes:
Oh, wow. There are so many reasons. Let me say this first, that we are a country that incarcerates poverty. We are a country that incarcerates mental health. Our prisons have become our largest providers of mental health services, if we wanna call it that. We are a country that incarcerates addiction and other types of disorders. There’s a monetary benefit to the prison industrial complex, right? Like people have become billionaires off of prison systems. Um, when you think about one state prison and you think about that now private companies run most of the telephone systems across the country that inmates are paying for. When you think about there’s like maybe three across the whole country companies who run the commissary products out of the prisons, right? Or the things that people can order. It used to be back in the day, if you had a son, God forbid, in prison, Lee, and he needed clothes, you’d be able to order clothes, have them delivered to the prison or even drop them off at the prison. Now, if your son’s in prison and he needs clothes, you have to order through this vendor, which is in most places a singular vendor. So there’s a monopoly of wealth being made off of the prison in the mass incarceration system. The other thing historically is that prison has been used as a weapon to weaponize racism. And I think that is an area we don’t talk about enough either, right? Because once, if we follow the, looking at the 13th Amendment, once slavery was abolished, they began to use incarceration as a type of slavery, as a type of punishment, as a type of control. And NAPD, one of the things I’m really proud of is NAPD is really committed to making sure that people understand this connection between things like poverty and wealth and racism to mass incarceration And if those things have to be, if we keep those things stagnant in understanding those things, then we will realize that why is there a fight when communities are saying like, I don’t want any more prisons in my community. Why is there a fight when we’re trying to get rid of bail’s bonds, cash bonds and certain communities, right? Because people are making money off of this. Obviously, if you look at the other countries that you named and the other statistics, how necessary is it, right? Is prison just be you know, some folks who at least can come halfway say prison should be used for the most violent. The other thing is the war on drugs, that’s when you saw also the prison population boom. So there’s many very poignant, very clear, very clear data, very clear connection with the reason that the U.S. is number one in terms of incarcerating its citizens.

Lee Wochner:
One of the reasons that I plucked some names from that laundry list of perfidy was to shame us, because I mean, when Iran is beating us and Turkey and such, I mean, that’s a sad statement. We’ve all heard about Turkish prisons and we’re way beating them in this awful competition.

Lori James Townes:
Yeah, the other thing I’m sorry, the other thing I did forget is over incarceration. We over incarcerate, you know, like when, when states have three strike laws and people are going to prison for life because it’s their third strike and they could have stolen some Pampers from Walmart, then we’re literally over incarcerating people as well.

Lee Wochner:
My birth state is New Jersey. And New Jersey had a delightful system where there was a judge accepting kickbacks from a privately owned for-profit juvenile hall. And so he was, you remember that story, he was incarcerating a lot of teens for a long time and he was getting paid per capita per kid in the system. And I’m happy to tell you he’s now in prison, but that didn’t change the lives, improve the lives of all of those kids locked up.

Lori James Townes:
That’s right. That’s right. Yeah. Absolutely.

Lee Wochner:
Yeah. So the work that National Association for the Public Defense does is incredibly important, important to democracy and important in people’s lives. How do you spread the word about the association to public defenders?

Lori James Townes:
So I think through our programming, we offer a variety of wide and diverse programs throughout the year. We have a healthy and robust online training programs that we offer. And they range from webinars to conferences to specifically crafted and developed courses, just like a college course that folks may take and put in different areas. And so we run and offer very diverse online programming in addition to our in-person conferences. So that’s one of the ways Folks will come to a program and they’re like I want to be a part of this organization The other thing is of course is word of mouth when folks come to An event or a what we call a meetup, which is the community building aspect of our mission Then they’ll say like hey, I went to this program for social workers. You should join. You should join this organization. You should come to these meetups because they know what we’re going through. Because these are other social workers who work in public defense. They don’t work in hospitals. They don’t work in soup kitchens. They don’t work in Department of Social Services. They work in public defender offices, and you should want to be a part of that. NAPD also provides a good amount of technical assistance or support in training and targeted development to our public defender offices across the country as well. And so that is another way that we get the word out. Sometimes, you know, I may go to speak at an office and do a training and maybe only half of the folks there knew that we existed, maybe the director knew, but maybe everyone else didn’t know. So, or we’re asked to speak at a conference. And so that being in the community, being embedded in the community, doing assessments of public defender communities, help people to understand the importance of NAPD and that they want to be a part of it.

Lee Wochner:
So in our work with NAPD here at Counterintuity, one of the things that I learned is, of course, local laws differ. And so if you are facing a trial in Georgia, it will be different from facing a trial in, let’s say, California or Illinois or such. And you guy, one of the things that you do, I believe, is you have a network where people can check with other members to see if there’s other applicable law that might help with a case. Is that one of the things NAPD helps do?

Lori James Townes:
Yeah, thank you for reminding me of that. Yes, we have many, but targeted, what we call listservs, that folks can post questions. We have one, for example, for leaders, we have ones for investigators, we have ones for social workers, we have one for people who are doing diversity and equity work. We have one for what we call our core staff members, like paralegals and office managers and so forth. And our most robust one is at least our Facebook group is, and you saw this when you worked with us as our wellness page, where it just gets the most traffic, it gets the most conversation, it gets the most community building. And that is, again, that is a core value of us to create space where people can build communities and support for one another, because it can be lonely. And although you mentioned New Jersey, for example, which is a statewide public defender system. There are systems where it’s not statewide, it could be countywide. And then in some counties, as you know, across the country, rural communities, that it could be one courthouse, two judges, and four public defenders, right? And so they’re seeing the same judge every day, they’re hearing the same cases in front of these public defenders every day, and it’s lonely, you know? And so it is important, and because NAPD, is a virtual organization. It was founded virtually, which was a blessing to us when COVID hit because this is how we were already operating. But it is, although there’s drawbacks to not having a brick and mortar office for me and for members of my team, the beauty and the joy is that we can serve anyone.

Lee Wochner:
Our agency runs on collaboration and I got to tell you my energy level and I feel like my creativity is very different when there’s other people in the office versus when it’s just me trying to figure things out, right?

Lori James Townes:
Exactly. Yes, exactly.

Lee Wochner:
So let’s talk about communications a little bit, right? So what role does communications play in public defense? Is it really, is it about knowledge sharing as we just talked about? Is it about, what is it about?

Lori James Townes:
Well, you know what, I think that we’ve seen a growth in the importance, at least acknowledging the importance of communications. We also have a communicators group. That group is made of people who work in public defender offices who may be head of the IT department or who may be directors of communication. They may be the people doing the press release statements, the people making sure the website is the outward facing web pages are speaking to folks who need public defenders or need advocacy or need support or want to be involved. I believe that we went through a few waves of public defense in terms of trends. Not too long ago, we went through the sustainability and wellness wave and that’s still here, obviously. I think now we’re going through one where leaders realize that they need leadership training, which I’m so excited about because it’s so true. And then communication directors within their offices, right? Because who doesn’t have that? We’re representing a government function, right? Even though we’re public defenders, we’re part of the criminal legal system. We are a branch of this system. And so they have their communications people, right? If I had a client who committed a horrendous crime, it’s gonna be all over the news. They’re gonna call the prosecutor. They’re gonna ask for statements. They’re gonna have all the coverage about the judge and all of those things maybe, right? But public defenders don’t have that. They don’t have anybody, they may not have anybody to get out front of the story. They don’t have anybody to pitch a story to get the community to know about what they stand for and why they’re important. I think that the communication piece will serve us well. It would be great if, just like we have finance members of our teams, that maybe that could be a core position in the future down the line for all, especially statewide public defenders or large branches of public defense. Because I believe that the community needs to know more about public defense. And I believe that the community needs to see what public defense looks like now, maybe then what it looked like, I mean, let’s be honest, um, John, what is this? Uh, Foreman, James Foreman wrote a book called Locking Up Our Own, right? And it really talks about the implicit, complicit role that people do this work have played in mass incarceration in those numbers that you just quoted. And part of that is because, um, it was sort of seen as this siloed profession and now we got to get out into the community. We got to partner with the community. They’re the experts. They’re the ones that can tell us how poverty is impacting them. They’re the ones who can tell us how crime is impacting them. They’re the ones who can tell us how lack of education in their communities are impacting them, which all trickles down to why people really suffer in this country.

Lee Wochner:
And in the theoretical case you cited with a client performing a horrendous crime, it may turn out that the client did not perform the commit the horrendous crime, but the client was arrested for the horrendous crime and deserves a fair trial.

Lori James Townes:
Absolutely.

Lee Wochner:
Um, so there’s the reality of facts. And then sometimes I get my dander up and I go on Twitter or X whatever. And I’ll say, well, you know, now facts don’t matter anymore. Unfortunately, we live in this fact free universe. Um, so let’s talk about television for a minute on any number of law and order shows, um, inevitably there’s the viewpoint of the crusading district attorney.
And then the public defenders seem impoverished, harried, borderline incompetent. Um, so, uh, I, I’m hoping you have a viewpoint on this. How, how accurate is the portrayal of these public defenders and is Hollywood perpetrating an unfair viewpoint of public defenders?

Lori James Townes:
I absolutely believe Hollywood portrays an unfair viewpoint of public defenders. Listen, I am getting the anniversary of getting in a 60 years old, so I wasn’t here in the beginning, right? However, so I’m pretty sure some of those depictions and some spaces at some time, just like any other depiction of anything could be true, right? However, not the ones that I know, right? The ones that I know are hardworking, dedicated.

They care about what they do, they’re devoted and convicted by what they do. I think the struggle is that public defenders absolutely have too many cases. Public defenders work in a system that is systematically set up for them not to meet their clients before they have to represent them. So you see those depictions on TV or in movies. Where they’re like at the lockup and they’re like, tell me your name. Oh, okay. Did you know you, you know, all right, I’ll see you in court right in there. And the person’s like, wait a minute, is this it? Is this what I get? Right. That’s not on the, that’s not incompetency on the public defender. That’s what the world needs to know. There are many systems in this country. Many courts are run to make sure that that’s the process. Right. I believe, um, Texas. Fair defense just filed a lawsuit and I’m hoping I’m quoting this right, but your listeners can look it up to make sure because it’s brand new. But for example, fair defense just filed a lawsuit to argue against the fact that there are courts in Texas where preliminary hearings and people are charged and attorneys are not allowed in the courtroom. It’s a closed court. Can you imagine?

Lee Wochner:
What? Why is that not unconstitutional?

Lori James Townes:
Yes. Exactly

Lee Wochner:
I thought you were entitled to representation.

Lori James Townes:
Exactly. Let’s see, there are some courts where it’s like at this juncture, right? It’s at this juncture. Maybe 10 years ago, the Richmond decision where I live in Maryland made it unconstitutional, at least in state level, unconstitutional for defendants to be unrepresented at bail hearings. So now people have a right to have a representative, an attorney with as we know, bail hearings is the first entry point to your loss of freedom. And bail hearings and commissioners are not lawyers, they’re not judges. You know offense to them, but they’re just regular individuals with no training, but with so much power. And most people don’t know that. People believe like, oh, if you didn’t get bail or you didn’t come home. There’s some judge that heard your case and realized and thought you were a threat to society, right? And so these are the things that people need to know. And I do think that the depiction of public defenders in Hollywood and in other places really is a in service and injustice to the field of public defense, the community of public defense and also to the clients that we serve because it’s a depiction that that’s all our clients deserve. Right, that that’s all they deserve. Because you could see one episode of Law and Order with the same public defender type and depending on the client, the behavior is different. So the bias is so embedded in our society that sometimes people overlook it. They don’t even realize like, oh, I saw that person depicting a public defender in season two and treated their client like garbage. But now you have this, you know, this, this woman from Manhattan who lived in a brownstone who possibly we’re talking about a law and order episode here, by the way, guys, who possibly killed her husband and all guns are out, right? To make sure that this person is represented to the best of their ability. And so those are the things that we really have to check and look at and confront and call attention to.

Lee Wochner:
So what’s the best way to counteract this public misperception about public defenders, whether it’s on TV or in the marketplace of ideas, in discussions, lunch rooms? I mean, what can we do about this?

Lori James Townes:
That’s a really good question. I think first, I was raised, I can show them better than I can. I can show you better than I can tell you. That’s one thing. In showing folks better than we tell them, it’s making sure that public defenders are properly resourced. It’s making sure that public defenders have everything that they need to do the jobs that they need. It’s making sure that they have caseloads and workloads that are manageable give them an opportunity to represent in the way that they want to represent. It is pushing back on people who make decisions about public defense funding and public defense organizations that have the power but choose to not use it in a way for the good because of the people that we serve. I also think as you talked about communication, I think public campaigns about what public defense is, right? And where and how public defenders, what the narrative of public defense really is and showing the true nature of public defense and having people to understand what a calling this is, right? How important this is. Even in Law and Order, the show starts and it talks about there’s three main players in the criminal justice system. And public defense is not listed in there, right? The defense is not listed and so the defense period is not listed. And we are an important link in that chain, right? Of breaking the controls of injustice. And so there’s so many things that I think that we could do, but I think public campaigns are important. I think making lawmakers, I think forcing lawmakers to fund and support getting public defense independence. We didn’t really talk about that, but there are systems in place where public defenders are not independent. They’re run by boards and commissioners who, many of them are ex-prosecutors or what have you, appointed by the governor and have no deep desire to see the quality of public defense get better. I think as a country, we have to be better.

Lee Wochner:
We’re going to take a short break here, but when we come back, Lori and I will be talking about a recent independent study of public defense, what needs to change and what it’s like managing an essential nonprofit association. Stick around.

Jaclyn Uloth:

Hi, this is Jaclyn with Counterintuity.

If you’re wondering if email marketing is still worth your time and effort — you can stop. It IS. Despite the rise of social media and other digital marketing channels, email remains a highly effective way to reach your audience. With email, you can deliver personalized, targeted messages directly to your subscribers, boosting engagement, donations, and awareness. And with email automation, you can save time and streamline your marketing efforts. It’s a great way to stay connected with your constituents, learn more about them, and grow your organization, so: say YES to the power of email marketing.

If you’re wondering how to get started or up your email game, give us a call. We’re always happy to help.

Lee Wochner:
And we’re back with Lori James Townes, Executive Director of the National Association for Public Defense. Lori, NAPD recently celebrated the release of the National Public Defense Workload Study, a project of the Rand Corporation and some others, National Center for State Courts, American Bar Association, that standing committee on legal aid and indigent defendants and lawyer Stephen F. Hanlon, credit where credit’s due. I know you guys didn’t write the report and it’s important to say that because it’s an independent study and And you called it on social media. You guys called it a milestone in assessing our public defense crisis What what should we what did you learn from the report what should we take from the report?

Lori James Townes:
So one of the things I want your listeners to know that it’s been 50 years since anyone examined workloads and caseloads of public defenders. So this was a long time coming and kudos and congratulations and thank you to all of the authors and researchers and everybody who made this possible, including my good friend, lawyer, Steve Hanlon, who has been championing this with the partners of RAND, the American Bar Association, as well, and the National Center for State Courts. So why is this important? It’s important again, because we haven’t looked at it in 50 years. We know that it’s a problem. We know that only, a person can only handle so much. Public defense has shifted. I heard a public defender say the other day, we are now getting
thousands and thousands of pages of cell phone records, of social media records, right? Outside of the evidence, right? Maybe hours and hours of video from the community. I used to do death penalty mitigation work, I don’t know if you know that, but before I stopped doing it mostly full time, most of my cases were federal RICO drug cases. And the federal Rico drug cases, they are, I mean, I’ve had cases where there are 28 co-defendants. And with 28 co-defendants, there are typically in a Rico case, there are wiretaps. And so you could get thousands and thousands and thousands of hours of just telephone conversations of wiretaps, which you have to listen to because you never know what’s in there that the government’s gonna use against your client. And so therefore, representation has changed. Technology has enhanced the level of discovery, the level of work that needs to be done. The other reason that it’s important is because we are losing public defenders as a result of the heavy caseloads and the people that are suffering are the clients. We are ineffective if we cannot provide quality representation. We’re ineffective if we’re averaging. 10 hours on a felony murder case, right? Because we have 50 other felony cases, maybe not all murders, but 50 other felony cases. And I say to folks who are not in this field, can you imagine being charged, and as you keep reminding me, maybe not guilty of a crime, and you’re a public defender through no fault of his or her own. And not because they don’t want to be an amazing defender for you, but does not have the time to adequately investigate your case, right? Represent you, file motions on your behalf, listen to all of the evidence that the government is pushing and saying that it’s evidence. Pick a proper jury. All of the things that need to go into representing one person for one case. And so this study provides an overview of, and the findings of what it is that public defenders need to be just adequate, right? I would say even just be adequate. And it provides a mechanism for them to do exactly what we were talking about before the commercial break, which is to advocate, request, demand proper funding from local jurisdictions, from whoever they get their funding from. It provides the data that’s necessary. It provides the tools and it provides the weapon, which is the report, which says like, we’re failing at this if this is how we’re operating. And it isn’t, it’s not a universal fix because as you said, every jurisdiction, every system is different, but it at least provides a scale.

for folks to come back and say, look, the study says this, we are triple this amount, we’re triple this particular recommendation for caseloads. It provides us with a path forward.

Lee Wochner:
You know, from a socioeconomic perspective, so we’re underfunding this is essentially the case being made. So we’re underfunding this. And so theoretically, therefore more people are going into long-term incarceration. And the thing I ask myself, there’s the humanistic emotional response, which is I’d rather these people not be in prison because I just can’t wrap my mind around we need this many people in prison. And so therefore, I don’t like it. But then also, wouldn’t I rather they be working and paying taxes and building social security and all these other things? I mean, it’s just a huge cost. As a business owner to me, it makes no sense that this is happening, that we incarcerate all of these people unless And this was the other theory that you and I jointly floated, unless we’re enriching some other people by over-incarcerating people.

Lori James Townes:
Well, I wanna just say we’re absolutely enriching folks by over-incarcerating, that is no doubt. That cannot be argued that people are getting richer from incarcerating people, right? Not everybody, right? Not every jurisdiction, but again, that’s out there. Especially once we started privatizing prisons. But when you think about all the collateral things that’s needed. When you think about the average daily cost to keep someone incarcerated as well, I wanna say the last time that I was involved with the research that looked at the fiscal impact of incarceration here in Maryland, it’s like $35,000 a year to hold someone in prison or more, probably more now. And That’s just astronomical, right? So this report can also do that, right? Can monetize what we’re doing by not giving people… So listen, I wanna bring up one point with this, that what this report also lets us know is that there has to be a holistic, it has to be a holistic model for representation for our clients, right? Because if you’re talking about, you just reminded me, if you’re talking about people not being incarcerated or not being over incarcerated, then you need the support systems there and you need the professionals there to tell courts what it is that will help, what it is that will benefit this person so that this person, let’s say they are guilty, doesn’t come back, right? Let’s say that there are survival issues that are happening, right? Like I tell, when I teach students, I tell them all the time, like, the basic hierarchy of needs are so important. I know that when we were leaving, we were in school and we took it in psychology class, we were like, oh God, if I have to hear about Maslow one more time. But let’s think about that, right? Like, if you can’t eat, if you can’t, if you don’t have fresh water to drink, if you don’t have a roof over your head, if you don’t feel safe, you and I, we’re not just gonna sit on the corner and starve to death, right? Like we’re just not, like we’re not just going to be like, well, I don’t have any food, so I’m just going to sit here till I die. Like that’s not going to happen. And so if we don’t start understanding that public defenders and the holistic approach of public defense requires us to look at the human basic needs, including all the way up to self actualization, then we are, you know, we are going to continue to see this number raise, right? Especially the way things are now in this country, the fact that people cannot afford the basic things to sustain themselves and rent and the cost of housing and all of those things. So we absolutely, I absolutely believe that public defense is a catalyst for social change.

Lee Wochner:
I’m always having a better day when somebody brings up Abraham Maslow and the hierarchy of needs. So thank you for that I Will tell you I’ve known a couple of self actualized people I feel in my life. I strive for that I might closer as I get older. I hope so but I you know, I don’t think and at the top of that by the way is Generally being more beneficial more outward focused helping other people and you know, love is an important component on the hierarchy of needs. So the basics are food, water, shelter, and then you move up. And I don’t think we’re self-actualizing too many people in prison. And I do appreciate, and you and I agree yet again, that there are people who belong in prison. There are certainly some people we don’t want getting out of prison.

Lori James Townes:
That’s right.

Lori James Townes:
Absolutely right

Lee Wochner:
My struggle is with the vast numbers of people in that prison. And I just greatly doubt that they should all be there. And it seems like a systemic failure, which you are speaking to.

Lori James Townes:
Yes. And you know, I hesitate to say, I feel like there are some people that feel that way. I don’t know if I can say like me, Lori feels that way. I would say the vast majority of our NAPD people will not feel that way. Many people are abolitionists now in this movement. And I think it’s because of, well, one, I know people who have gone to prison for something, for a crime that they committed, even murder and they come home and they’re home and they’re doing amazing things. And they, however, now that I know them now and I know their journeys, there’s absolutely things that could have been in, that could have been into play to keep that crime from happening. So I do get the movement of abolitionists who say, if we were doing all the other things right, there would be no need for prison. Right. So that, that is a, a fact that
some people that many people are pushing this country to understand. I mean, we’re a long way away from that. I get that. But I do like to float that in the air that there’s a movement in that space and within public defense. And again, that’s another reason why it’s also hard to recruit people in this space too now, because people want to be. They want to be involved in the movement, Lee. They want to be out there doing, or they want a public defender’s office where movement is movement building is a part of the mission.

Lee Wochner:
So Lori, I’d love to spend our last few minutes having a little conversation about you. I admire your passion for the work. I personally, I don’t think I’ve run, I’ve not run an organization with the level of importance of yours, but I have run nonprofit associations and I know how difficult and challenging that can be. So I also know you’re a licensed social worker, which brings a suite of skills to this sort of role that perhaps I could have used years ago. What was the journey that led you to become the executive director of NAPD?

Lori James Townes:
So I started off wanting to work in the prison system back then because I didn’t have any conceptual idea or understanding of anything beyond that. I don’t really know, to be honest, what prompted that interest. I did have a father who spent most of his life in and out of jail, but I didn’t have a relationship with him. So I can’t say like, I wanted to like, you know.

Lori James Townes:
So maybe subconsciously, we could geek up on that later, but at another time. However, I really was, I had a professor that did work at the Baltimore city jail. And I really loved this professor. And so he, one day he said like, I’m volunteering at the jail. Let’s say Thursday nights, you want to go? And he would always call us by our last names, undergrad and Morgan state university, and he, and I would say, yeah, I’ll go with you. And so that was the first thing that got me hooked because I went, I’m 19 years old, I’m in this prison at night doing these classes with these men who are about to come home and I learned so much from them. I’m pretty sure they learned absolutely nothing from me, but I learned so much from them. I saw them as I was able to see that narrative, right? When you said the shift in the narrative. I was able to see the person and not with the media or whoever says is the monster. I was able to see them for their intelligence and their compassion and their thoughtfulness, their remorse even in some cases as family men, as fathers, as sons. So that was the first thing. And then I started doing death penalty mitigation work later, a little bit later in my career, not even later in my graduate school years. That was my internship. I’m undergrad. I got into the world of capital mitigation as an intern. And then I worked at the Maryland Office of Public Defenders for a while as the director of social work and the director of leadership. And I continued to do work around the country in courts and out of courts and training. And then I came to NAPD to support Jeff Sherrill, amazing training director. I came to support him to build the training program. And then when the executive director of NAPD stepped down, many of the team members asked me to apply. I will say, I’ll be honest and transparent, it did not cross my mind until other folks said, you should apply for this job. And I was like, there is no way this is gonna happen. I’m a social worker, I’m not an attorney. And even though I had been, you know, preaching this gospel across the country, like social workers are just appointed as attorneys.

Lori James Townes:
When it came, when it looked me in the face, I was like, no, that’s not gonna happen. And folks were like, no, you should apply. Like you should apply your leadership. So I think that I bought something to the table. And as I prepared for the position with the materials and that was requested in the interviews, I realized that perhaps I was a good fit for this position and that the things that I had done whether big or small, Lee, and you know, as we get to a certain point in our career, you look back on something and you thought it was so minute in your journey, and I realized then that even these small, minute things really did prepare me for the seat that I sit in now.

Lee Wochner:
Most of our work here at Counterintuity is with nonprofits and public agencies. We’re trying to do our little part to make a positive impact. And so the people we work with are filled with passion just as you are. And it’s, I gotta tell you, that sort of thing fills me up. Like that’s why I get excited in the morning, right? I’m just gonna go and work on these things with these. What makes it rewarding for you? Because this is a challenging position. What’s the good stuff for you personally?

Lori James Townes:
The good stuff is when I was starting internally, then externally. Internally, the good stuff is when I see my team mostly over Zoom and a great idea happens and we’re like, yes, let’s make that happen. And then six months, a month later, it comes to fruition, right? Like that’s the good stuff. The good stuff and all of those good things really serve our members. And so, when I recently I was in Grand Rapids, Michigan for a technical assistance project and I was meeting folks in the community, I was doing some assessment pieces and as I was talking to folks for this other different role that NAPD is playing. I mean, it filled me up when people were like, I love NAPD. I love what you guys do. I mean, people were saying things like, I couldn’t come to a conference and you guys registered me for the next one. You didn’t give me any fuss about it. You know, you like, you care about us. You care about our members and in that spirit and that core value will hopefully and does transfer and trickle down to the clients in the communities that our members serve, right? That we are mirroring something. That we’ve learned when we were, you know, like Jeff and I and Kathy Bennett and others that who worked in public defender offices, like what we saw when we were there that we know is a key element for our members. And then I just have the most amazing, the most amazing team. There are only 13 of us and we have 28,000 members and we offer, I can’t even think off the top of my head. How many services, trainings, and opportunities that we offer. The external reward is that I know for sure that every time we increase the capacity of our members, that that’s just increasing the quality of representation and the quality of service, the quality of community, the quality of leadership, the quality of teams for public defenders across the country. And it feels good that people have a place to come to, that that’s so public defender in some part of Texas, right? Can log on to a NAPD program or put a question in the listserv and they will be supported and they will be supported. And that just brings me so much joy.

Lee Wochner:
Do you have any, are there any lessons learned? Do you have any advice you would pass on to other people running associations or nonprofits that bits of wisdom you’ve picked up that you think others could apply?

Lori James Townes:
Don’t be afraid to ask for help. Don’t be afraid to tell people I have no idea what I’m doing. This little piece right here, I don’t know what this is. I don’t know how to navigate this. Don’t be authentic, right? Be authentic, be transparent, be collaborative, but also hold fast to what your core values are, right? Also uplift what you know your organization stands for. And even when those days are tough, you go through those days. I do a lot of venting with my inner circle because that’s how I move on. People will say, you could have a rough day and the next day, and people don’t know it. And it’s not like I’m not having the rough phase. It’s just that I do what I need to do to get that out. And then I got to pick up the mantle and I just got to keep going as well and process it. And so I think that’s a bit of advice that I would have. Have your inner circle of support and mentors. They don’t always have to be the same people for the same reason at the same time. And make sure that you’re supporting and make sure you’re supporting your team and that you care about the team and the people that you work with because then they will in turn then care for you.

Lee Wochner:
That’s awesome advice. I love the little venting bit, because that’s important. Nobody ever talks about it, but there are people here on the team I can vent with now and then. I’ve got a lovely woman in my life I can do a little venting with. I’ve got kids and friends, and it’s important. Two last questions. What are your hopes for NAPD?

Lori James Townes:
My hopes for NAPD is that every state in the country would be a member in the future. Every statewide system would be a member so that we could support them in all the ways that they need support, but that also every small little office would come to NAPD so that we could support them as well. My hope is that we’re able to build not just numbers, but quality, right? The quality of services that we’re offering. My hope is that we will have, when I apply for this job, I said one of the things that I really wanna do is that when people ask us for help, that we would have the capacity to go to them, to not just sit back on Zoom, read some documents and be like, you need to do this and you need to do that. And we know better, but that we’re able to, that we will build our financial capacity to be able to go sit in a courtroom in Mississippi, right? And help and say with the right people, not just me, not me, but the right person, that we find the right people to go and support them on the ground, that we become a fierce advocacy operation and organization, that when people think of public defense, they think of us, right? That when a sitting president wants to know, like what do public defender needs, that he’ll reach out to NAPD. Because we represent the full picture of public defense. And I think that’s the beauty of our organization. And I just wanna see us to continue to grow where we are, but in broader capacities and extended capacities, if that makes sense.

Lee Wochner:
Absolutely. Lori, if there were one thing you’d like people to take away about public defense, public defenders, or the National Association for Public Defense, what is the one thing you would like them to know?

Lori James Townes:
You know, I would like, first of all, when public defenders who do this work and all the roles that we do it, I’m hoping that they listen and that they are proud of what they do. And that they realize that they are absolutely making a difference in the people in the communities that they serve. And they are a beacon of hope, like I said before, in the social justice world. And for people who don’t know about public defense or public defenders, I would say get to know.
You never know when someone in your family, someone in your community is going to need a public defender. Public defenders need community support. Some of them need board members. Some of them need people who are directly impacted to be a part of trainings, to be advocates for them, to serve the clients that they serve. To me, it’s a community profession.
It’s an interdependent profession. Uh, we’re not, we don’t want to be siloed. And so I would ask that the folks who don’t work in the field know that it’s a noble profession as well. Um, and that when we go down to a state house or a capital to argue for more funds, to argue for it, it’s not just to line our pockets, this is a vow that we need you to say, yes, give those folks what they need so that if my brother is facing a judge that my public defender in my community has what they need to provide them with the best representation that money can’t buy.

Lee Wochner:
Lori, thank you so much for joining us today. You’re doing important work. I admire your passion and your eloquence, and it’s been an absolute joy to spend some time with you.

Lori James Townes:
Oh, same here, Lee. Thank you very much.

Lee Wochner:
Thank you.

Jaclyn Uloth:

Thanks for listening! We’re glad you came. That’s What C! Said is produced by Lisa Pham and engineered by Joe Curet. It’s available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. Please like and follow the show. Visit Counterintuity.com to sign up and learn more.