Engaging with your audience in a post COVID world with Darin Anthony

Jaclyn Uloth: Welcome to the podcast that lightens the tension when things sort of get hard…
That’s What C! Said, the Counterintuity podcast, featuring interviews with leaders and doers who have helped to make our world a better place through their actions — and especially through marketing, communications, and embracing change. Here’s host Lee Wochner.

Lee Wochner: My guest today on That’s What C! Said is stage director and artistic leader, Darin Anthony. Darin is the artistic director of Moving Arts in Los Angeles, a theater company dedicated to the development, production, and promotion of adventurous new works by Los Angeles artists.

Lee Wochner: He has directed many world premiere plays in Los Angeles, New York, and at universities, as well as web series and a feature film, receiving numerous awards and nominations in the process, including Ovation Awards, the Los Angeles Drama Critics Circle Award, the LA Weekly Awards, and other awards. I don’t see any DramaLog awards though, Darin.

Lee Wochner: which I’ve won. So I beat you on that. Darin.

Lee Wochner: Welcome to That’s What C Said.

Darin Anthony: Yeah, thanks, Lee. Glad to be here.

Lee Wochner: Why no DramaLog awards, Darin? I have those, they’re right there on my wall.

Darin Anthony: Well, you gotta remember Drama Log went out of business a little before I got in the game, I think. I remember when I got back to LA, they were still around, but then they shortly went out of business after that backstage.

Lee Wochner: After?

Darin Anthony: I think.

Lee Wochner: Awarding my plays, they were like, we’re done.

Darin Anthony: After awarding your plays, they were like, nothing can get better than Lee Walker’s plays, so let’s just go out of business. Go out on a high note.

Lee Wochner: Well, I’m glad someone understands. Thank you.

Darin Anthony: Yeah.

Lee Wochner: So, you know, we’re always interested to, and I certainly am, to talk to artists and people who are artists and also in business and working in nonprofits. And so I’m very interested to speak to you today. So let me ask you, what’s your origin story? What led you to become a stage director?

Darin Anthony: Well, I would say it’s somewhat typical. I discovered theater in seventh grade with speech and debate teams and taking acting classes, did a couple of plays then went on to high school, the bug got serious then, did all the plays, and then I went off to Chicago and studied. All of my classmates would tell you this, have a big mouth, and not just physically, but like I always had something to say and I felt like I had this concept outside of what just the actor brought to a process. I didn’t really put my finger on it then, but when I got out and I was working professionally and I had my SAG cards and my equity card and all of that, I had an opportunity to direct. A friend said, hey, you wanna direct a stage reading? And I thought, why not? And I did it and it went great. And people were like, oh my God, that was wonderful. It was great to work with you, insightful. And I was like, oh, okay, great. And so they said, you wanna do it again? I said, okay, I’ll do it again. And kind of one thing led to another and people just kept asking and asking and the career kind of blossomed from there. I asked a couple of people if I could shadow them or assist them, you know, Michael McKaddie and Jessica Kudzansky Soren Oliver and people I respected and worked with and I learned a lot from them. And I just sort of that became the

new thing and it was kind of great.

Lee Wochner: Kind of funny sometimes how the universe chooses you. You know, you kind of, it becomes apparent to others in the universe where you fit, sometimes before it becomes apparent to yourself.

Darin Anthony: Yeah, that’s right. And I remember it was my 30th birthday and I thought, maybe I really should be a director. Maybe that was so it took that long. But yeah, the universe pointed all the signals that way and it’s been great since.

Lee Wochner: Well, I’ve seen a lot of things you’ve directed. And yes, I think you should be a director. You’re a very good director. I’m always impressed with how you make use of the space, how you work with actors and such. And the most recent production of yours that I saw, which was Dana Schwartz’s Play Playas.

Lee Wochner: I mean, I was really impressed about how you broke the fourth wall, you worked in different areas of the stage to create things that weren’t really there. And I thought, well, that’s something that Darin’s really good at. I have seen that from you again and again.

Darin Anthony: Thank you. And that’s actually been something that I really enjoy because the acting and theater at its barest is like we’re all around a campfire, right? We’re all around a campfire, we’re telling a story, and we want to get that story across. And so sometimes you have bells and whistles and video screens and chandeliers and helicopters that can come down, but sometimes you just really want to pull in with the very simplest of things. And so maybe it’s proximity, maybe it’s just a couple of black boxes, maybe it’s balancing the actors in a certain way so that they’re off balance and you’re off balance. And I think all of those little things really make a big difference in getting those stories across in the simplest, clearest, most direct fashion.

Lee Wochner: So let me ask you two questions in one. The one is, how did you get to be the artistic director of Moving Arts, and what the heck is an artistic director? What does an artistic director do? The artistic director of Moving Arts is a director of Moving Arts and he’s a director of Moving Arts.

Darin Anthony: Well, two good questions. So one, the easy one. E.M. Lewis, as a playwright, she was a member at Moving Arts and a previous student of yours, I believe, right?

Lee Wochner: That’s true.

Darin Anthony: And she and I worked together at the Blank Theatre, the production of a play called Heads, and then we did some early workshops of Song of Extinction and Catch, which was another play of hers. And she was like, oh, you should do these car plays at the Moving Arts. And I said, okay, and threw my hat in the ring and I got accepted and I ended up doing car play Bury University when Moving Arts was doing a show there. And then I got asked to do some readings with the company and I thought, well, this is a really great company, really into what they’re doing. I did the car place again. And then the opportunity came up for a new artistic director. And so I thought, well, hey, this company, I worked with them, I liked them, Ellen was very involved. I like people I’ve met. Let’s give it a try. Now at that moment, I will tell you, I didn’t really know exactly what an artistic director did outside of picking plays and directing plays and sort of being the person out front and center. As I would come to learn, an artistic director in some in the company like Moving Arts has to wear a lot of hats. So that second question, what is an artistic director? That sort of depends. Sometimes it means you’re doing the quick books and the payroll. Sometimes it means you’re cleaning the toilets and filing. Sometimes it means you’re reading 10 plays and picking the best one and saying, great, we’ve got something we want to put up and show the world. But it tends to be a marriage of all of those things while hurting the cats that can be the other actors, directors, playwrights, company members that you’re so lovingly working with. So that’s kind of what an artistic director does in a small theater. I think on a larger scale theater, I think they get a little bit more artistic freedom, but I’m not entirely sure. They may be free of cleaning the toilets when they’re up at the taper or something like that. But I’ve done my share of toilet cleaning and when I was running a small theater, which happened to be that one back in the 90s, I remember one time in our lobby, there was something that had gone bad. And when the show started in the theater, I went over in the lobby and was handpicking up all of the maggots and getting rid of them.

Lee Wochner: Yeah, so we both have war stories.

Darin Anthony: Yeah.

Lee Wochner: Poor stories.

Darin Anthony: Yeah.

Lee Wochner: How long have you been the artistic director?

Darin Anthony: Nine years.

Lee Wochner: Awesome. So, being a working artist in 2023, what’s it like?

Darin Anthony: It’s very different than before the pandemic. We went indoors in 2020, and a lot of changes happened. Black Lives Matter gained momentum, and there were shifts in the theater community. Now, people have gotten used to staying home, enjoying sound systems, and it’s challenging for theaters to bring them back. Concerts have maintained their appeal due to the uniqueness and timing of the experience. As an artist, we need to remind people of the joy of theater and overcome the challenges of changing tastes and audiences. We aim to connect with both older and younger audiences, bringing in new viewers while maintaining the support of our existing audience.

Lee Wochner: So, with these changes, marketing challenges have also shifted. In the past, I advocated for theater companies to collaborate and cross-promote. But during the pandemic, people became accustomed to the comfort of their couches. Restaurants are full, but theaters remain mostly empty. We need new marketing strategies to encourage people to return to theaters.

Darin Anthony: I agree. We need to break through the noise and reach individuals on a personal level. Personalized messages like phone calls or text messages can be more effective than mass emails. It’s about finding ways to engage with people directly.

Lee Wochner: In the past, performing arts attendance was around 1-3% of the population. When marketing, it’s more effective to focus on existing attendees and incentivize them to bring others. Building on the base audience and encouraging them to invite others can help develop a new audience.

Darin Anthony: That’s right. It’s about nurturing our base while expanding our reach through personal invitations.

Darin Anthony: That’s right. People who are big fans of your company or the work you do are your best ambassadors. That’s your best advertising. That’s your best place to spend money and time. Build those relationships, and they will spread the gospel for you in a way that an email or an Instagram blast wouldn’t do.

Lee Wochner: Yeah.

Darin Anthony: I still think there was a great article or review about the Tempest downtown in the LA Times today. That will help. It still works in this town, which is good to see. But newspapers have shrunk or disappeared, along with other critical outlets, leaving social media and personal blogs. Now bloggers are invited as influencers.

Darin Anthony: It’s a good question. Picking a play to produce is challenging because there are plays I like but finding the hook, the marketing angle, is crucial. Our graphic designer helps with ideas. We discuss with the board, the managing director, and others to determine the target audience and how to market. Sometimes a play isn’t for everyone.

Lee Wochner: So, how do you balance the artistic needs, the audience, and the business needs as an arts business?

Darin Anthony: It’s been a challenge, but we received grants to keep us afloat during the pandemic. Now we can do impactful work and focus on connecting with the audience. People want to have fun, even if the play is socially challenging. We aim to provide an experience from ticketing to the end of the show. It’s important to consider the entire experience, not just what’s on stage.

Lee Wochner: That’s wise. The post-show reception at Moving Arts has been terrific. It creates a sense of community that you can’t get from streaming at home. It’s like what they do in London with theaters connected to pubs.

Darin Anthony: Exactly. In London, you can go into the lobby and walk right into the pub, where you can talk to actors, playwrights, and directors. We don’t usually have that in Los Angeles.

Darin Anthony: On the hill, the Taper and the Amundsen and the Dorothy Chandler, they have all these restaurants and bars open before the show. But after the show, it’s a ghost town. And you think, well, this would be a great time for me to get a pint with somebody or have a scotch and talk about what we just saw. Maybe it could be a stranger or the people I came with. But if I have to get in my car, I’m going to go home. I’m not going to go downtown to another bar. It seems like a missed opportunity for community and connection and to further the live entertainment experience that you can’t get at home. The reason you came out.

Darin Anthony: You may have hit on it, maybe marketing the after-show of “meet the actors, meet the playwright, etc., hang out, have a cocktail with us, and discuss it.” And if they leave because they didn’t enjoy it, it’s fine. But if they loved it, they’ll hang out.

Darin Anthony: I was in New York a few months ago and went to see Tom Stoppard’s new play. I’m a Stoppard fan.

Darin Anthony: I went to see Leopold Stott, which I loved. And some people near me walked out, and I’m like, well, okay, it wasn’t for you, that’s okay. And then I exit the theater, make a right, and there’s Tom Stoppard.

Darin Anthony: He has said this will be his last play. He’s, I think, 83.

Lee Wochner: Yeah.

Darin Anthony: I’m grateful. He’s one of those writers I’m grateful for every day. Thank God for Tom Stoppard. I said, “That’s a brilliant play, sir. Thank you.” And he said, “Thank you” and shook my hand.

Lee Wochner: Yeah, that’s great!

Darin Anthony: So, right. Imagine if we could all have more of that, where you get to meet your generation’s Shakespeare, the great actors, writers, directors of your era. You go to your local theater, your local arts hub, and you get to hang out with them a little bit after and just say, “Hey, nice to meet you. That was cool.”

Lee Wochner: Yeah, yeah. So when I was in London, I went and saw what is probably my favorite contemporary play, “The Pillowman” by Martin McDonough.

Darin Anthony: And I saw that at the National. And I happened to be sitting next to Steven Sondheim, which was amazing. He was in town because they were doing “Sweeney Todd” at the opera, but I was like, that’s Steven Sondheim.

Darin Anthony: I was not brave enough to be like, Steven, I love you. But he was great, you know.

Darin Anthony: So too late now, I know. So the next night I went to the Almeida Theater and I saw another play, and Michael Attenborough, the son of Richard Attenborough, was the artistic director and he was directing. This was a play that had Damien Lewis in it, the red-haired guy from Billions.

Darin Anthony: At intermission, I said, you know what, I didn’t talk to Stephen Sondheim last night. I’m going to go up and talk to Michael Attenborough. So I saw him up in the upper decks. I went up there and said, hey, I introduced myself as Darin Anthony, a director from LA. Oh, hey, nice to meet you. They’re in previews. It’s like, how’s it going? He said, oh, it’s great. We had some nice chatter. Then David Tennant walks up, and I was like, oh, hey, and he’s like, oh, great, great cast, Rolls Royce cast you got. I was like, oh, great. And they chatted. I was like, oh, I saw you yesterday. He was like, oh, thanks. And I was like, you’re great. That was a great show. He said, oh, cheers. Thanks, mate. Well, this is incredible. It just made me absolutely thrilled. So I think you’re right. If people could have that experience and have it be easy and facilitated, I think they’d love it. I know I did.

Lee Wochner: I went, I sat on the board of a foundation for 10 years. When I was the chair one year, I went to the National Council on Foundations Meeting in Washington, DC. My son and I took my son, who was then 12. My son and I were having dinner in a hotel bar, and with us was my friend who was also on the board and his wife. I see David McCullough, the writer and major narrator on PBS. I’ve read every one of David McCullough’s books. I’m a huge fan, and I love his voice narrating those PBS specials. You never want to be a nuisance, but McCullough was there having his dinner and drink. I go up to him and say excuse me, excuse me Mr. McCullough. I’m sorry to interrupt. I’m a huge fan, and I just want to say thank you for the books. I mean, I think you’re terrific, and your John Adams book made one of the best friends of my life because we had both read that book and talked about it. We’ve become fast friends ever since. It’s been 20 years. I go back to my table, and McCullough brings his stuff over and joins us for dinner. I could not have been more thrilled. He was very thrilled to be recognized. We talked about all sorts of things, the state of the union, whatever. It turned out he was the speaker at the conference the next day. I had no idea.

Darin Anthony: Oh my goodness, that’s incredible.

Lee Wochner: Yeah.

Darin Anthony: It was really absolutely great. Those things, the elements of live performance and meeting people in life versus seeing them on a screen, it’s a very different experience, and different sorts of marketing go into it, which is kind of what you and I are talking about here.

Darin Anthony: Yeah.

Lee Wochner: Yeah, communicating. It’s not just the show, it’s the whole vibe.

Darin Anthony: That’s right. It’s the whole experience. You know, and that’s very different. You can see it from movie theaters. They tried to make things, the movie houses, the sort of temples back in the golden age. They got away from that though, and they just thought they could have some lights and popcorn and what have you.

Lee Wochner: Yeah.

Darin Anthony: But I think we need to kind of go back to that to lure people out and back in the community. I think everybody’s got a phone, and we’re all way, way too connected to those things. We need to remember how to talk to each other and not just text or send emails. That’s a whole thing with building community and friendships.

Lee Wochner: All right, we’re gonna take a short break here for a special announcement, and then we’ll be back with Darin Anthony of Moving Arts to talk about how to market the specialness of live events and mistakes made, lessons learned, and more fun stuff about live performance. So we’ll be right back.

Jaclyn Uloth: Hi, this is Jaclyn with Counterintuity. Being compliant with the Americans with Disability Act on your website is the right thing to do, so that everyone can visit and use your website. But did you know that it’s also a legal requirement? By ensuring your website meets ADA compliance standards, you make it more accessible to people with disabilities, improving their user experience and expanding your audience. And by complying with ADA regulations, you can avoid legal issues and protect your organization from expensive lawsuits.

Check out the Counterintuity blog for more on this and other important website compliance topics. Or give us a call. We’re always happy to help.

Lee Wochner: All right, we are back with Darin Anthony, Artistic Director of Moving Arts, the theater company in Los Angeles that does adventurous new works by Los Angeles artists.

Darin Anthony: That’s right.

Lee Wochner: Thanks again for being here. So we were talking about marketing and marketing special events and so forth. You were saying a whole bunch of things have changed in the past three years, and you alluded to this pandemic that I keep hearing happen. Right, this people apparently heard of.

Darin Anthony: It did.

Lee Wochner: Yeah, it was not good. So.

Lee Wochner: Yeah, sadly. So, for you, not just for Moving Arts because I know you’re really well connected, but have you heard like what’s working for some non-profit theaters, some smaller theaters? What’s working in marketing?

Darin Anthony: You know, I haven’t really heard what’s really working. People complain, obviously, but I think the thing that works the most is word of mouth. I think that was probably the same when you were running the theater. If the person at the grocery store tells you, “Hey, you should see this play,” and then you hear at the barber shop, “Hey, you should see this play,” you’re like, hang on a second, I should see this play. People are telling me I should see this play. How do you get people to feel like they’re getting that message? That’s the trick. How do you get those people? I think it really does have to do with having big fans and advocates for the work and the experience and having them get out there. One of the things that’s working on me is actually material.

Darin Anthony: I know it’s probably an outdated thing, but I actually get it in the mail, and then I actually have to hold it and think about it. I spend more time engaging with it than most emails.

Darin Anthony: Even if it ends up going into the circular file or recycling, I spent more time with it. I know something about it. I’m more aware of it. It’s a hit that I think is maybe more valuable than we give it credit for. Maybe it’s strategic. For our next show, for example, we’re nestled right in a neighborhood.

So there’s a bunch of houses right around our theater. When we do our next show in the fall, we’re gonna paper the neighborhood with flyers. Flyers specifically inviting them, giving them a discount, trying to draw them in, specifically inviting them to see this show in their neighborhood, be a part of this community. I think that’s where we’re going to be able to build some more base. If you could walk to a theater, that’d be like, “Hey, why not? This is going to be fun.”

Lee Wochner: I agree with you about print. We’re preparing a campaign at Counterintuity and I suggested a print and mail approach. Someone questioned it, but I think it’s worth doing. People don’t receive much mail these days, so it stands out. I’ve personally responded to postcards I’ve received from theaters. It caught my attention and made me aware of their shows. It’s a valuable tactic. Papering the neighborhood is also a good idea. Having a theater within walking distance is appealing. If a theater had been near me growing up, I would have visited regularly. Visibility is crucial in marketing. You need to let people know you exist and keep reminding them. We’re about to launch a campaign called the Seven Deadly Sins of Marketing, and the first sin is invisibility. It’s essential to be seen and known. There have been challenges with email marketing due to changes in operating systems, affecting open rates and tracking. Apple’s privacy measures have impacted data availability. While there are more marketing tools, there’s also constant change to adapt to. Moving Arts has shown cultural adaptability, and we recently discussed how to navigate changes. We had a five-year plan created by an accounting expert on our board, which provided a roadmap and financial stability. It allowed us to plan ahead and adjust as needed. We can take risks while ensuring the sustainability of the organization.

Darin Anthony: Having board members with expertise in planning is crucial. They provide reassurance and believe in our vision. Working with a five-year plan has made a significant difference compared to not having one. It allows us to plan, schedule, and organize marketing efforts, including our upcoming fundraiser event in May. Our board member, Mark Stevenson, emphasizes the importance of setting dates and maintaining organization at a board level.

Lee Wochner: Years ago, I served on a board with the founder of the Disney Channel, who taught me about budgets. He emphasized that budgets are always subject to change and need regular check-ins. Cash flow is vital, and our company has a 26-week cash flow projection, providing stability and allowing for better decision-making.

Darin Anthony: Working with Eric, our new managing director, has been great. I look forward to budget check-ins with him so that I can focus more on the artistic aspects. We have financial security with reserves set aside, like larger theaters do, providing peace of mind for emergencies.

Lee Wochner: Darin, what’s the impact of a supportive board versus a challenging one on an artistic leader like you?

Darin Anthony: We’ve been fortunate to have supportive board members. When managing directors didn’t align with our vision, it created conflicts that affected our work. It’s challenging to concentrate on the task at hand when there’s friction and tension. On the other hand, having board members who believe in our vision and offer constructive challenges helps us break down problems and address them more effectively. It creates a positive environment where we can focus on our goals.

Lee Wochner: Any lessons learned over the past nine years that you’d like to share?

Darin Anthony: Yeah, I think it’s important to listen to everybody’s point of view. Be open to everybody’s point of view, listen, but you don’t have to take it.

Lee Wochner: Ha ha ha!

Darin Anthony: Listen, be thankful, support. Thank you for that. And take what works for you. But they are giving and they are trying to help and really help to fight them or you know, about it. Listen. They want to give you advice. Maybe they’re not giving it in a way that you can hear it right in that way. But, you know, listen and take what works for you. I think that that’s a very, very important thing.

Darin Anthony: What else? I think find people you like to work with. You know, the people you like to work with, it’s going to make going to work and the working better every, every time, every time.

Lee Wochner: Yeah.

Darin Anthony: You know, the difference between being in a room with somebody you have friction with.

Lee Wochner: Yeah.

Darin Anthony: in a room that you can easily talk to and be honest with or frank, or you know they can call you on your bad behavior or your missteps, and you can do the same. All the difference in the world. It’s you’re working with closed shoulders, and so you want to make sure that you have people who are, you know, in the same place as you so that that really means a lot.

Lee Wochner: That seems like great advice, both of those.

Darin Anthony: Yeah.

Lee Wochner: The people who are trying to help, I love the idea of listen, but you don’t have to take the advice. And one of the things I hear myself say all the time is,

Lee Wochner: I don’t even agree with myself all the time, right? So it’s like, I don’t expect to agree with anybody all the time.

Darin Anthony: Right. Yeah.

Lee Wochner: or have them agree with me. And I think you’re right, it’s valuable to listen because you could be wrong or it might be valuable unexpected input to make use of. But no, if people are giving you bad advice, for God’s sake, don’t do it.

Lee Wochner: Don’t take it. But listen to it.

Darin Anthony: No, well, yeah, and even last night, or yesterday, as we prepared for our board meeting, and we wanted to just sort of throw all the spaghetti against the wall for ideas, and what…

Darin Anthony: are the new things moving arts could be doing? How can we utilize this space more? How can we bring in people? How can we activate our company members? All these questions that, you know, small arts organizations always think about. And Eric and I were listing things, and I said at one point, I said, I don’t even like some of these ideas, you know…

Lee Wochner: Ha ha ha ha ha!

Darin Anthony: like, But I want to, you know, let’s maybe let’s throw them out, you know, because maybe…

Lee Wochner: Yeah.

Darin Anthony: it’s not the exact idea as we just wrote it. Maybe it’s the kernel of that’s good, but the execution is totally different than what I just said. And so now it’s a different idea. And now it works, you know, but you don’t know if you

sort of kill it before you even get it out there. So…

Lee Wochner: So that sounds like an open-minded collaborative Aristotelian process. That sounds pretty good, right? Or a Socratic process.

Darin Anthony: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Lee Wochner: Yeah. Well, based on improv, right? I mean, improv, you never say no, you say yes and, and counterintuity was formed by theater people. And so we hear all the time hear ourselves saying yes and because we’re trying to improve it but just utterly rejecting things.

Darin Anthony: collaboration. Mast! Yes, and.

Lee Wochner: It’s easy to be rejecting and cynical and negative and but but I love how open-minded you are in that discussion with Eric of I don’t even like these ideas. But let’s see what they lead to. That’s really great.

Darin Anthony: Yeah…

Lee Wochner: Um, all right, so, uh, what’s your favorite famous play?

Darin Anthony: absolutely. My favorite famous play is probably Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead.

Lee Wochner: Ah, Tom Stopper again. How come that one?

Darin Anthony: John Stoffer. I did it in high school.

Darin Anthony: I played Hamlet. And it just, it opened my mind to language in a totally different way.

Darin Anthony: because he was, he had Shakespeare in there and then he had Stoppard in there, and they actually put them, you know, side by side. And you just thought the places he goes with these characters who are such minor footnotes in Hamlet…

Darin Anthony: gives them this deep thought process and quirky things in the coins. And it’s just funny, it’s touching. They end up dying in the end.

Lee Wochner: Yeah, offstage.

Darin Anthony: It’s great. Offstage, right? Yeah, ’cause they’re not…

Lee Wochner: Yeah.

Darin Anthony: important. And that’s, you’re like, how did you do that?

Lee Wochner: And so that experience and how old were you?

Darin Anthony: Uh, I was a junior in high school, so…

Lee Wochner: Okay, so teenager. And so that really shaped your life. That’s what’s brought you to this point. Well, next time I see Tom Stoppard, I should tell him that he’s probably…

Darin Anthony: 17. Yeah. It did. If you would, please…

Lee Wochner: He’s probably heard this sort of thing before because he’s made a big impact on me too. I saw Arcadia once…

Darin Anthony: please. It was meaningful.

Lee Wochner: Like, I don’t know, 20, 30 years and 25 years ago at the taper and I still think about it. I just that was wonderful. And I only saw it the once and man it is…

Darin Anthony: Yeah.

Lee Wochner: hung with me. I just love that. With Darin, it’s been a real delight speaking with you. If people want to learn more about Moving Arts and about you, where should they go?

Darin Anthony: www.movingarts.org. And that’s all there. It’s a great new website for us. My bio’s on there, resume, and all of that, as well as what’ll be upcoming and what we’ve done in the past. Please come out. Love to see you at the theater. And I’ll see you in the next video. Bye.

Lee Wochner: Well, you’ll certainly see me, and I hope lots of other people. Thanks so much for joining us today.

Darin Anthony: Absolutely. Thank you.

Jaclyn Uloth: Thanks for listening! We’re glad you came. That’s What C! Said is produced by Lisa Pham and engineered by Joe Curet. It’s available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. Please like and follow the show. If you’re hungry for more, get your counterintelligence briefing in your inbox each week. We cut through the clutter to give you digital marketing tips, tricks, and the information you need to stay on top. Visit counterintuity.com to sign up and learn more. Visit Counterintuity.com to sign up and learn more.