From crisis to comeback: a case study in turnarounds

Lee Wochner:
Deborah, it’s great having you join us today. Nice to see you.

Deborah:
Nice to see you. It’s nice to be here.

Lee Wochner:
I was very impressed — and let me tell you why we’re so delighted to have you on the podcast today. At Counterintuity, we’ve been telling folks they’d better start making adjustments because of all the enormous change happening: socio-political shifts, economic upheaval, and more.

Now, I happen to be on the Moving Arts Theater board, where you’re the managing director. I showed up to a board meeting, read the materials in advance, and thought, “Well, Deborah and her colleagues have already put changes in place.” That was delightful to see. So I thought, let’s give people a sense of what it looks like when you take stock of your terrain and adapt — because you and your team at the theater company seem to have done a really good job.

Deborah:
Thank you, Lee.

Lee Wochner:
Of course. And I understand there’s a lot of turmoil in the arts right now, especially in the nonprofit sector. But you have to deal with the terrain as it is. This feels like a chance to give people something useful — actual to-dos — instead of just more gloom and doom.

I have a little bullet list of things we might talk about. It seems like in the past six months or so, you’ve implemented a number of specific changes that have already led to some success — things related to budgeting, partnerships, and funding. Is there anything else you’d add to that list?

Deborah:
Well, we created a new program, which I think falls under the partnerships you’re talking about. That’s probably the most dramatic change we’ve already made. And right now, we’re in the process of building a new partnership. It’s not finalized yet, but we’re feeling optimistic that it’ll come together before the end of 2025.

Lee Wochner:
Awesome. And as you pointed out in that board meeting — which I was delighted to attend — you said, “Here we are creating a new program.” That really stood out. We don’t just have to cut things; we can create new programs that reflect the space we’re in right now.

Let me hit a couple of backstory points first to catch everyone up: when did you get hired as Managing Director of Moving Arts?

Deborah:
I was hired in August 2020 — peak pandemic. Total lockdown. Moving Arts was producing Zoom theater, which I was really impressed by. That was basically the only option at the time, and they were doing it.

I had been with another organization — Deaf West Theater — for two years, but that had paused due to the pandemic. Like a lot of people, I was spending a lot of time in the garden and reading books. It had been a while, and I was looking for something new. I saw that Moving Arts was hiring a Managing Director and thought, “Who’s looking for a Managing Director during lockdown?” Most theaters were cutting staff — if they hadn’t already.

But then I realized I had seen a couple of Moving Arts shows in the past. One in particular — Apocalypse Play directed by Darren — I really liked. That piqued my interest in the organization. I interviewed with Darren, and we hit it off. Then I interviewed with several board members, including you, and it just felt like a good fit. I definitely didn’t expect to be getting a new job in theater at that moment in time, but it worked out.

Lee Wochner:
I saw Apocalypse Play too — Darren Anthony directed it, and of course, he’s the artistic director of Moving Arts. That was a terrific show. I loved it.

Deborah:
I loved it, too. And I thought about it a lot during the pandemic — it felt especially relevant.

Lee Wochner:
Yeah. You know, the pandemic — talk about making lemonade out of lemons. There was all sorts of artistic activity going on. As you know, I’m also a playwright, and I wrote a play that took place entirely over Zoom as a series of Zoom meetings. The interesting thing about that was, as a theater writer, normally I’d get a production here, a production there, with that one audience. And for the first time ever…

Lee Wochner:
I had a global audience — and it was all live. The producer scheduled performances around the clock to accommodate different time zones: Europe, the East Coast, the West Coast. I never would’ve written that play if not for the pandemic.

Deborah:
Yeah. There were good things that came out of it, no doubt about it.

Lee Wochner:
When you first arrived at Moving Arts — and we’ll get to the changes in 2025 in a bit — what did you find? What was the state of the organization at that time?

Deborah:
Well, I was surprised, actually. Even before I started, when I was just doing my research, I looked at the 990s — the nonprofit tax filings, which are public — and saw that the theater had a really strong track record of earned income. That’s pretty unusual for a small theater. A lot of that came from renting out the space.

Moving Arts had a small theater on Hyperion Avenue in Silver Lake. It was tiny and on a busy street, maybe not the best parking situation — but the space was used really effectively. I was impressed.

I was also really impressed by the board’s business savvy — and I’m not just saying that because you’re here, Lee. That’s not something I’ve found consistently on other small theater boards. But at the time, and still today, we have a group of people who really understand business. You’re a small business owner, and so are other members of the board. There are folks who work in the studios. That business acumen is a real strength of this company — and it was new to me. I was happy to find it.

Lee Wochner:
I should mention that this theater company has been around since 1992 — that’s a long time. There was a founding ethos, and some of the board members, even today, have had a very long association with the theater. That might be part of the strength you’re identifying.

Deborah:
Absolutely. There’s longevity — not just of the theater, but of board involvement. And I’d add the artists, too. We have members of the artistic ensemble who have been with Moving Arts since before I arrived — even before Darren. They’ve been part of it for a long time. That kind of institutional knowledge is really valuable. It’s lovely to have.

Lee Wochner:
And there’s a lot of caring — people really care about the nonprofit, about the theater, and how it’s doing.

Okay, so that’s what you found when you came in. And up until last year — before everything we’re seeing now in 2025 — you started making some changes. Because there’s always room to improve. If you came to my company and poked around, I’m sure you’d spot ways to improve things quickly. So before this current moment, what sorts of things did you tackle and put in place?

Deborah:
Well, the rental income was great, but I noticed that when it came to grants — and I have a background in grant writing, I still run a small grant writing business on the side — Moving Arts was relying exclusively on government grants. Which is great; they tend to be larger. But there wasn’t any real foundation grant program in place.

That was something I wanted to implement right away — and that was the first thing I worked on.

Then, post-pandemic but before 2025, we created another earned revenue stream: our acting classes.

Deborah:
That came about in 2023. We have a wonderful teaching artist named Ann Noble — I’ve known her for years from back when we were doing theater together in Chicago. She’s a terrific artist. She started running a very popular acting class — it’s been almost two years now — and it’s been great. We’ve also brought new people into the theater through that. Some of Ann’s students have even performed in…

Lee Wochner:
…in anything?

Deborah:
Mad Lab productions — which we’ll talk about in a minute. But yes, we’re always looking for ways to bring in new artists, especially younger artists. It’s wonderful to have our long history, but we need new people too — we need the youngins. And this has been a great way to do that.

Lee Wochner:
Mm-hmm. One nice thing to mention about foundation grants is that they’re typically funded through investment returns, mostly from the stock market. And while government grants are being pulled back — partly due to political changes — foundations have been doing relatively well because the markets have been strong. So in some ways, foundation funding feels more accessible than it used to.

Deborah:
Yeah, I think that’s true. Foundations — I’m not saying they completely write their own rules — but they do have more flexibility. They can decide what they want to fund and are less affected by the political shifts that impact government funding.

Of course, they’re still influenced by the economy — we all are. But they have a bit more control, and they’re usually smaller, more relationship-driven. That’s been my experience both at Moving Arts and with other organizations I’ve worked with. It may take time to build those relationships, and the turnaround isn’t always fast, but it’s been really rewarding to see progress with them over time.

Lee Wochner:
And because you referenced it, let’s talk about Mad Lab — again, we’re still in the pre-2025 timeline. I think you’ve brought a renewed focus to that program. Want to tell us more?

Deborah:
Yes! Mad Lab is our signature new play development program at Moving Arts. It was created by our Artistic Director, Darren Anthony, shortly after he stepped into that role. The program has been around for 10 years now and is currently run by Dana Schwartz — who’s a wonderful playwright, director, and actor.

Mad Lab runs annually. At the beginning of the year, we put out a call for submissions from L.A.-based playwrights. That’s important — we’re very L.A.-focused at Moving Arts. Writers submit ideas for plays — not drafts or finished pieces.

This year, we received over 100 submissions and selected five. The development process happens in four stages throughout the year. It begins with two cold readings, followed by a summer workshop, which we’re just about to start. In the workshop phase, we bring in actors and directors, and each play gets 15 hours of work. Then in September or October, the plays are presented to the public in a final reading, with light design elements. It’s a lot of fun — and it’s completely free for the playwrights. There’s no fee to participate, and we’re very proud of that.

We’ve built a strong pipeline through Mad Lab. This fall, we’ll be producing our fifth Mad Lab show — Hello, My Name Is by Amy Dellagiarino, which was developed in 2020. We’ve produced several of these plays ourselves. Even more exciting, some Mad Lab plays have gone on to major stages across the country.

For example, A Homeward House by Matthew Paul Olmos premiered at Steppenwolf Theatre in Chicago in 2024 — that was a huge feather in our cap. Other plays have gone on to the Ojai Playwrights Conference, the Great Plains Theatre Conference, and more. So we’re really proud of the program.

Because of all that, I’ve made Mad Lab the focal point of our grant strategy. A lot of the grants I’ve written recently have centered around it. It’s probably the most unique program we have, and the track record makes it easy to build a compelling case for support — especially when you can show tangible success from our playwrights.

Also, from a practical standpoint, funders — whether government or foundation — tend to prefer funding programs over general operating support. “Keeping the lights on” isn’t exactly exciting, but a vibrant new play development program? That’s a lot more appealing.

Lee Wochner:
Okay, so what we’re hearing is that in some cases, you took what was already there and polished it — you made better use of existing strengths. With MAD Lab, which stands for Moving Arts Development Lab, you saw an opportunity to pursue more program-oriented grants. That was a smart move, and it’s already had a lot of positive impact.

Another thing I’ve observed: the budgeting process is more informed now. You’ve got a clear sense of what we’re going to spend, how we’re going to spend it, and where the money’s coming from. And while you develop it with others, I think that’s exactly what someone in your role should be doing — and you’re doing it really well. I’m not sure the company always had that before.

All right — lots of positive progress. But let’s jump ahead to 2025, which… wow. Things have changed dramatically. One thing we discussed at the last board meeting was a grant we thought we were getting — I believe it was $45,000 — that we now may not receive. Is that right?

Deborah:
Yeah.

Lee Wochner:
And it’s not official that we’re not getting it, but…

Deborah:
Right. It’s not official, but it’s looking unlikely, due to government-related reasons.

Lee Wochner:
Okay. And we probably know what “government reasons” means in this context. So, we were expecting that grant, and although it’s not a done deal, your approach has been: let’s not count on it. Let’s not wait for the hammer to fall. You had budgeted around that number, and now you’ve identified it as a hole to fill — a need that has to be addressed differently.

So, how did you come to the realization that the funding probably wasn’t coming — and how did that feel? Let’s talk about feelings for a moment.

Deborah:
Oh my gosh. It felt terrible. In a word: devastating.

These are new problems. It’s one thing to apply for a grant and get declined — that happens to everyone. You don’t expect it, but you know it’s a possibility. But to have a grant essentially disappear — especially a government grant that had already been funded — that’s another story entirely.

It’s kind of like what happened with the NEA. I’m not saying it’s never happened before, but it’s not normal. And in some cases, organizations had already spent the money — they had shows opening that same weekend — and then they were notified the grant wasn’t coming. That’s brutal.

So yeah, it was shocking. It was a real kick in the gut.

Lee Wochner:
I’m so sorry. We can laugh about it now because it looks like you’ve solved the problem — but in the moment, it’s awful. It’s like opening your bank account and finding a big hole you didn’t know was there.

Deborah:
Exactly. But you just have to figure something out. It’s not really about being brave or optimistic — you just have to act. When it comes to problem-solving, I think every nonprofit has to ask: what are our actual strengths?

For us, one of our biggest strengths is our theater. We moved into a new space in 2021. It’s a little bit bigger than the old one — not by much — but there’s parking. It’s small but tidy, and very comfortable. People come to shows and say, “Oh my gosh, I love this space.” And we take a lot of pride in that. It’s a real asset.

Lee Wochner:
Do you think—

Deborah:
And some of our strengths aren’t going to show up on a balance sheet, but they matter. Another one is the longevity of our presence in the L.A. theater community — both Moving Arts as a company and the individual relationships we’ve built over time.

That led to the creation of a new program, which I think is where we’re headed in this conversation. I’m thrilled that in this incredibly difficult year — 2025 — we created a new initiative called Moving Arts Presents. We’re about to open the third of four planned productions for this year. The show is called Sorry.

Lee Wochner:
Mm-hmm.

Deborah:
Moving Arts Presents is a program where we bring in outside artists whose work we admire. These aren’t our mainstage world premieres — our own productions are always world premieres by L.A.-based artists. Moving Arts Presents is a little more flexible — usually a new or L.A. premiere, but not necessarily a world premiere.

There’s usually a strong L.A. connection, even if the artist isn’t based here. It’s a curated slate of productions that we believe in — work that we think will spark conversation with our audience.

We launched it with a solo show in March called Unreconciled by Jay Sefton. Then we just closed Tasty Little Rabbit by Tom Jacobson, a well-known L.A.-based playwright. This weekend, we’re opening Sorry.

We offer more production support than we would for a simple rental, but these are largely productions brought in by outside artists. We help bring them over the finish line. Each production includes a post-show element — whether it’s a talkback, a workshop, or a one-on-one session — like Jay did with his show.

It’s a new slate of programming, and it’s brought in more than just revenue — although we certainly don’t dismiss the importance of rental and ticket sales.

Lee Wochner:
And we shouldn’t dismiss the revenue! It’s backfilling that $45,000 hole. But even more than that, what you’re doing is maximizing the theater’s identity as an incubator. You’ve got acting classes. You’ve got MAD Lab. You’re doing rentals.

Deborah:
Yes.

Lee Wochner:
And you’re renting to community organizations that really need a home — groups that do valuable social service work and are getting an incredible deal. I’m glad those organizations have a place. Then on top of that, you’re doing these presentations, providing logistical and business support to help make them possible.

And you’re filling unused calendar space to do it — so it’s just a win all around. I’m very impressed with that.

Deborah:
Thank you. There’s one more thing I’d add that some nonprofits might overlook — another one of our strengths: our nonprofit status. We’re a 501(c)(3) organization, and that allows us to serve as a fiscal sponsor for some of our Moving Arts Presents partners.

That’s a win-win-win. We get a little income. They get to receive donations. And their donors get a tax receipt. It’s a great setup.

Lee Wochner:
Exactly — it’s all about recognizing the resources you have and figuring out who they align with. And really, that’s a marketing effort. That’s strategic marketing and management. Marketing is about connecting with a target audience — and essentially, that’s what you’ve done here.

Over the past three months, I’ve had probably 40 meetings with different nonprofits — Zooms, coffees, in-person — and a lot of it feels grim. I understand it. I sympathize deeply, and I want to help. But I just want to say: congratulations to you, to Darren, to Dana, to everyone at CCTO, and to the whole Moving Arts team for the success you’re creating.

Honestly, when I first saw the financials and projections, I thought there might be a mistake.

Lee Wochner:
The numbers looked pretty good — and I just think there’s a lot to learn here. Everyone’s working hard, of course, but sometimes, when things look bleak, that’s actually when opportunity shows up. I don’t want to be naive about what’s going on in the country, but let me share something.

We have a long-time board member who’s very close to my heart — Kevin. I think you know how you feel about Kevin. He’s very shrewd and smart. Many years ago, he said to the board and management, “We’re ready to climb the next step.”

Now, people who aren’t in business often assume growth is just a steady incline — but Kevin challenged us to take a leap, even during tough times. That was in 1999. And we did it. So right now, we’ve had a terrible pandemic, many people haven’t recovered financially, and there’s a lot of turbulence. But it feels like we’re jumping up a step again.

That’s because you and the management team have taken a really close look at how to turn lemons into lemonade — and enjoy that lemonade. Because the lemon tree isn’t going anywhere. You can either suck on the lemon or make something better out of it.

Deborah:
Yeah. I mean, we don’t have the luxury of not changing.

Yeah, change is scary. And I’d love to say we’re just so forward-thinking, so bold. Maybe we are — I don’t know. But honestly, we’ve kind of been forced to. What’s the alternative? That wouldn’t be very good for us. It’s literally a matter of change or die as an organization.

Lee Wochner:
Well, please don’t die — because there’s just so much exciting work coming out of the theater right now.

We’re going to take a short break here. When we come back, Deborah and I will talk about how you can make changes in your nonprofit when you need to, what keeps her motivated, and how to approach marketing and development around the improvements you’re making. Stick around.

…

Lee Wochner:
All right, now we’re going to dive into some tactics people can actually use — because they really need them. Ready?

Deborah:
Yep. I’ll take a sip of water, but I’m good.

Lee Wochner:
And we’re back with Deborah Reed, Managing Director of the nonprofit arts organization Moving Arts.

Deborah, when you’re running a nonprofit and you hit a problem — maybe it’s a funding issue, an audience challenge, a management issue — what’s your process for going from “uh-oh” to “yeah”?

Deborah:
Well, I think it really depends on the nature of the problem. If it’s a money issue, you need to get really specific: What’s the shortfall? What’s your timeframe?

Those two things are huge. If a grant doesn’t come through and you’ve got a year or more, you can probably find another grant. But that’s often not how it works. So you need to move fast.

If you have an angel donor — great. I salute and envy you. That’s the fastest option. Some kind of fundraiser or drive might be the middle ground.

And if you have the opportunity to create a new program — like we did with Moving Arts Presents — do it. Be creative.

In the nonprofit world, we often look outside ourselves for solutions — the next donor, the next grant. And you should do that. But don’t forget to look inward too. What can you generate from your own strengths?

For us, that’s our theater space. That’s our long-standing relationships. That’s our 501(c)(3) status. And honestly, it’s the talent of our artists.

Don’t overlook earned income. I know “nonprofit” is a big umbrella term, but whatever kind of organization you are, there’s probably something you can create or offer.

Lee Wochner:
At the same time, if you’re doing an appeal because you urgently need funds — because the iceberg is fast approaching — you still need to offer some sort of hope. You have to show an escape plan. Because nobody wants to give money to an organization that says, “If you don’t help us, we’re going out of business.”

Deborah:
Exactly. That’s a tricky marketing message — you have to strike the right tone. Communicate the urgency without veering into doom and gloom.

But it’s worth putting in the time to get the message right. My mentor, Lori Zucker — she ran the LA County Arts Commission for 25 years — always said: People give money to people. And it’s true.

Most of us, when we donate, we’re doing it because of a personal connection. Emotion is a big part of giving. It’s about what feels meaningful to us.

So when you’re making a request, pull on those heartstrings. Ask the people who are already close to you — the ones you spend holidays with, vacation with, call during hard times. Those people care. And if you need a quick influx of funds to stay afloat, they’re the ones most likely to help.

Lee Wochner:
That’s really well said. People want to fund success — or at least the potential for it. They’re forgiving if you’ve run into trouble, but they don’t want to feel like they’re throwing good money into a hole. They want to fund a solution.

Deborah:
Exactly.

Lee Wochner:
They want to fund the future. Something that continues to help people, entertain people, inspire people. Especially in the arts — people want to feel alive in their culture. But if your message is “we’re in trouble and it’s all falling apart,” it just doesn’t work. People want to fund momentum — not the mess.

Deborah:
Yes, exactly.

Lee Wochner:
So we’re really talking about marketing here. Fundraising involves marketing. Everything you do touches marketing. How does Moving Arts approach its marketing overall?

Deborah:
I mean, you know this better than anyone — marketing is storytelling. It’s no accident that you’re a playwright — you’re a storyteller. And we’re storytellers, too. So we try to communicate our story as clearly and meaningfully as we can.

We work with a wonderful consultant, Jonathan Josephson. He actually started as a county intern at Moving Arts over 20 years ago — and we brought him back last year. He’s also a playwright, so he’s not just a marketer — he’s a storyteller. He understands what we do and he understands our audience. That’s baked into how he approaches everything.

We rely on him a lot. We use a lot of social media, we use Mailchimp for eBlasts — and the focus is always on sharing: What are we doing? Who are we? And why does it matter?

Lee Wochner:
Does your marketing approach change based on whether it’s a co-production, a Moving Arts Presents show, one of your own world premieres, or an acting class? Are you reaching the same audience for everything? How does that work?

Deborah:
We actually do try to segment the market a bit. I’d say the depth of storytelling is more intense with the shows we produce ourselves.

When someone rents our theater — and we’re not involved artistically — of course we still want them to succeed. But it’s different. They usually provide their own key art and we share it with our ticket buyers, but it’s not as comprehensive.

Moving Arts Presents falls somewhere in the middle. It’s more involved than a straight rental, but maybe not as in-depth as our original productions. It’s still a new program, so we’re figuring it out. And the acting classes are more targeted — we promote those directly to people who take or are interested in taking classes.

Lee Wochner:
You mentioned ticket buyers — but it’s also important to keep your funders, grantors, and donors aware of what’s happening. What do you do in that regard?

Deborah:
We invite them to the shows. It’s really that simple.

They’re on our e-blast list. They see our social media — or at least we hope they do! But the most important thing is the invitation. Even if they’re busy and can’t attend, it’s still a touchpoint that’s not just about asking for money. It’s a relationship. These are human beings, not just check writers.

Lee Wochner:
(Some of them, anyway.) That was a little joke about some of the people we’ve dealt with.

Let me ask a few final questions. This whole conversation has felt like a breath of fresh air. A lot of people are struggling right now. At Counterintuity, we’re doing our best to be helpful and upbeat — not to dwell on the darkness, because people are surrounded by enough of that.

Right now, it seems like theaters and arts organizations of all sizes are in crisis — even the biggest ones. But in my experience of you, you’ve stayed remarkably level-headed and driven to find success. What’s your secret?

Deborah:
Thank you, Lee.

You know, I started this work in 2018. I was new to arts management — spent two years at Deaf West, and then the pandemic hit. Those first two years were probably the most “normal” I’ve ever experienced, but I was still learning, so it wasn’t exactly relaxing.

After that, it’s just been one thing after another. I’ve never worked in a “normal” environment — it’s always been chaotic. So, honestly, this feels normal to me. That’s probably why it doesn’t faze me much. I wouldn’t say I enjoy it, but it’s what I’ve known: recovering from a pandemic, scrambling after funding, navigating emergencies — our city was literally on fire at one point. There’s always something.

Lee Wochner:
That’s such a valuable insight. And you’re right — last week, in downtown Los Angeles, there were curfews. Center Theatre Group, the Music Center, the opera — all had to cancel performances. That’s devastating for already-struggling organizations.

Deborah:
They sure did. Yep.

Lee Wochner:
What advice would you give to others managing nonprofits?

Deborah:
Well, first: I sympathize. I’m right there with you.

Look at your organization’s strengths — as we discussed earlier. But also, talk to your colleagues. Especially those outside your own sector.

I like talking to people in dance, or museums. My grad program at Claremont wasn’t focused solely on performing arts — it had a lot of museum professionals. One of my friends is a development director outside the arts — she used to work in veteran services, now she’s in academia. We only get lunch once or twice a year, but it’s always great.

It’s easy to get tunnel vision when you’re facing a crisis. You think, “This is terrible, I have to fix it.” But often, creative solutions are happening outside your bubble. Gaining some distance and fresh perspective can really help.

Lee Wochner:
That totally resonates. My arts background is almost entirely in theater. But 20 years ago, the first hire I made at Counterintuity was a former student from USC with a background in dance.

Over the next year and a half, I did six dance projects — and I absolutely fell in love with dance and the dance community. There’s a different energy, and there’s so much you can learn from crossing disciplines.

I also love museums — I make it a point to visit one in every city I travel to. You’re absolutely right: getting out of your own bubble brings insight, innovation, and new ideas.

Deborah:
Absolutely. Couldn’t agree more.

Lee Wochner:
Now I want to flip the script a little. What would you say to nonprofit leaders who feel overwhelmed or exhausted? Because I know how hard this job is. There’s a real sense of mission, and with that comes an intense emotional load. What would you say to someone having a tough moment?

Deborah:
I would say: I understand.

And I’d encourage them to take a breath — to step back if they can. Lean on your community. The burnout is real. It existed before the pandemic, before 2025. The burnout rate in nonprofit leadership is staggering.

So the need to take time off is real. The need to delegate is real. Do what you can to create space for rest and reflection. Talk to your peers. Talk to people outside your immediate circle. You never know where a good idea will come from — sometimes it comes from the most unexpected places.

Look to your peers, your aspirational peers, and even those just starting out. Insights can come from anywhere.

Lee Wochner:
Beautifully said. And what gives you hope?

Deborah:
What gives me hope is that I still want to do this work. And the people I work with — they still want to do it, too. They’re still bringing new ideas to the table.

Even when something doesn’t go the way we hoped — like the show we opened a week after the fires — the people who did come had such strong responses. The post-show conversations were meaningful and heartfelt. The gratitude and excitement from those who experienced it — it really made it feel worthwhile.

It sounds cheesy, but it didn’t feel like we were shouting into a void. And maybe that’s another piece of advice: connect with your audience. Connect with your constituents. Whether it’s your audience or your service community — talk to them. That connection is what makes the work feel real and valuable.

Lee Wochner:
If people want to learn more about Moving Arts, where should they go?

Deborah:
Visit movingarts.org. We’re also on Facebook and Instagram as @MovingArts. We’re out there.

Lee Wochner:
And if listeners want to get in touch with you?

Deborah:
Email me! It’s deborah.reed@movingarts.org — that’s D-E-V-O-R-A-H dot R-E-E-D at movingarts.org.

Lee Wochner:
Deborah, it’s been an absolute joy to talk with you. Thank you so much for joining us.

Deborah:
Thank you, Lee. It’s been a pleasure.