People are what it’s all about. No matter what the type of organization, nonprofits, local government, privately held companies, ultimately what we’re really talking about is people. And even in the digital age, people like to be marketed to as people.
Today our guest is Jon Tsourakis, president and co-owner of Oyova, an application development and marketing agency in Jacksonville Beach, Florida. Jon’s here to help us learn more about how best to use the latest tools and methods available to marketers to engage with your target audience online and also in person as people.
Jon Tsourakis:
It all comes down to your, your customers and your clients. What’s important to them. That’s, that should be the purpose of your company to serve them.
Lee Wochner:
People are what it’s all about. No matter what the type of organization, nonprofits, local government, privately held companies, ultimately what we’re really talking about is people. And even in the digital age, people like to be marketed to as people.
Today our guest is Jon Tsourakis, president and co-owner of Oyova, an application development and marketing agency in Jacksonville Beach, Florida. Jon’s here to help us learn more about how best to use the latest tools and methods available to marketers to engage with your target audience online and also in person as people.
Jaclyn Uloth:
Welcome to the podcast that lightens the tension when things sort of get hard… Welcome to the podcast that will leave you satisfied and smiling… That’s What C! Said, the Counterintuity podcast, featuring interviews with leaders and doers who have helped to make our world a better place through their actions — and especially through marketing, communications, and embracing change. Here’s your host Lee Wochner.
Lee Wochner:
Our guest today on That’s What C Said is John Tsourakis, a seasoned leader, digital marketer, and sales expert who is the co-owner of and president of Oyova, a three-time Inc 5000 marketing and application development agency headquartered in Florida. He’s a big proponent of helping others, whether that’s through one-on-one mentoring or collaborating with top digital agency owners in the Digital Mastermind Group, where John and I are colleagues. and where he hosts his podcast, The Climb. Hey John, how you doing today?
Jon Tsourakis:
Doing great. Happy to be here, man. Thanks for having me.
Lee Wochner:
Well, it’s an absolute pleasure. It’s nice to be here with you. Let’s get one thing out of the way. So how do you pronounce the state in which you live and work?
Jon Tsourakis:
Florida.
Lee Wochner:
Yeah, so my kid teases me because I say Florida, which seems right to me, but you’re saying something alien and wrong in the way he does. You’re saying Florida.
Jon Tsourakis:
Yeah, not Florida.
Lee Wochner:
See, it’s Florida.
Jon Tsourakis:
yeah.
Lee Wochner:
There you go. Now you’re getting you’re welcome. You’re good. Now you’re getting it right so So you and I have known each other for I guess like 10 years or something like that at this point
Jon Tsourakis:
Something like that. Yeah, yeah.
Lee Wochner:
yeah, you were like 15 at the time and you know, I was trying to bring you along but I wanted to You know, we have interesting parallels in our backgrounds in entrepreneurship and in marketing and in sales. And my business partner and I were having a discussion yesterday about you and your talent set and how it actually applies, not just to marketing, but also to nonprofits and government and making positive change, which was a fun discussion. So I wanna dig in a little bit to your background.
Jon Tsourakis:
Let’s do it
Lee Wochner:
And you self-identify as a sales expert, a sales guy. And how did you get started in sales? Like what was your journey there?
Jon Tsourakis:
So I worked for another marketing firm and I wasn’t initially brought on for anything related to sales. And it was out of necessity. There was the founder and I would go on the road with him and he was a wildly unorganized guy. He had more personal problems than any documentary he could cover, but he was also one of the greatest salesmen I’ve ever met. And it was just being around him and him being wildly unorganized and not showing up for a meeting where I had to essentially just kind of dive right in and do my best to try to sell something. And I did decent, didn’t necessarily close the deal, but I held my own. And it was from that he then began to mentor me and show me some tricks of the trade. And I realized that all of the real negative things that come, there’s negative connotations, whether it’s like, you know, car salesman or some of these others, um, those, those are just based on people having low integrity and just not being, doing the right thing in, in sales transactions. And, uh, I chose a different path and I’m happy I did.
Lee Wochner:
Well, to me, you just seem like a natural. I mean, what goes into sales is solving people’s problems, right? It’s not trying to screw them out of the last nickel in their pocket. It’s about trying to solve problems, creating opportunities, win-wins. But you have a friendly way about you. You have a friendly, engaging way, and you just seem like a natural at this, right? And you’re not withdrawn. Let’s just put it that way. You’re not such an insular guy.
Jon Tsourakis:
Oh, thank you. No, I think it just comes down to just authenticity. If you can really connect with someone and just be your authentic self and there’s something that they want that you potentially have and you have a compromise of a situation, a transaction, it tends to go well.
Lee Wochner:
And then, so what was the journey from that, learning from Disorganized Man, to starting a marketing agency yourself, and in what year was that?
Jon Tsourakis:
It was 2008, so what happened was that, working for that other firm, it rapidly grew. He had some great ideas. He’s no longer with us. He was a great guy. He had some great ideas. We were able to pull on some major accounts with some really good people, but it became entirely too corporate. And in 2008, I decided to leave and focus on something that was predominantly more digital, because that was a fraction of what we were doing and some of the stuff that I was in charge of. and also happened to be the pit of the recession. And I was a little bit, how would you put this? I was very proud at the time. I’m not sure if I can curse that in the show or not. So with that, I learned a lot of hard lessons and that’s where we started. We just literally did anything digital. And I mean anything, even if it wasn’t even in our purview, we’d crawl under desks and connect people’s wires. you know, because they were having connectivity or email issues that literally had nothing to do with digital.
Lee Wochner:
And then from that, at one point, and I think I know the answer to this, but let’s hear it, how did that lead to you being a co-owner at Oyova, which is another digital marketing agency? Yes, Oyova?
Jon Tsourakis:
It is, yeah. It’s the best one I know of. The second best one is Counterintuity.
Lee Wochner:
What? Yeah, we’ll see about that.
Jon Tsourakis:
We met through the digital mastermind and we had what I would call kind of a yin-yang relationship. We knew what the other was good at and we were in conversation for about 10 years, always kind of joking around like, oh, one day we should partner. Well, the economy was… roaring so well in 2018, we decided to go ahead and merge our agencies and then decided to keep the name oyova.
Lee Wochner:
So you mentioned, which means nothing as I recall, goyova is a made up word.
Jon Tsourakis:
yep, you’re absolutely right. It’s a short word with repeating letters.
Lee Wochner:
it means second best to counterintuity, I think that’s what it actually means.
Jon Tsourakis:
Hahaha! Yes.
Lee Wochner:
So you mentioned digital mastermind group, of which I think you’re the third owner, leader,
if I’m not mistaken. So what is digital mastermind?
Jon Tsourakis:
It’s a true mastermind. It’s a collection of agencies that come together to not only help each other out, but to also provide perspective on what’s going on in the landscape and try to forecast some really good decisions for everyone in the future.
Lee Wochner:
Great, that’s a great definition. I’ve certainly learned a lot there. And one of the reasons I always like to talk to you is we always bring back to the conversation things we’ve learned elsewhere. And we both have agencies that are like teaching hospitals, right? You teach the interns there to become better doctors and you’re helping save the patient who are clients. And so last thing under the John’s background suite of questions, and you have a business partner. as do I, who seems very different from you. What unites you? What’s the commonality? Why him? And I gotta say, I’ve become a big fan of David McGraw. I think he’s a terrific guy and a really smart guy. So why does that partnership work so well?
Jon Tsourakis:
He’s a great guy. I think it comes down to values and function, right? So it’s doing your job and knowing that those are symbiotic. We rarely overlap on a lot of things other than value and view of a lot of things. So he’s great at structure and production settings and the accounting side. I’m a marketer, I’m a salesperson, I’m a creative, I like vision, I like all of those things. And I think with that, and then also having a very direct format where we’re transparent, we don’t hold back, we’re very straight up with one another. And then through that, you can almost get through any situation, there’s nothing that you can’t really overcome when you have that type of system and structure in place in so far as a relationship.
Lee Wochner:
It’s great to have someone else to share the joy with and to carry the burden with. And I just like hanging out with that guy, I really do. And you as well.
Jon Tsourakis:
Yeah, likewise.
Lee Wochner:
So, thanks. So let’s talk about marketing.
Jon Tsourakis:
Let’s do it.
Lee Wochner:
And we mostly wanna talk about, there’s a lot to learn in all the sectors. We mostly wanna talk about nonprofits. I know you’ve done some work for nonprofits and marketing is marketing. So, What do you think are the three essential things a nonprofit should do to market itself? To just make improvement, to get the word out about itself, about its mission and what it does?
Jon Tsourakis:
Yeah, I mean, eliminating to threes is going to be a little bit tough. So I think I’ll try to take a broader approach. I think one is having an absolute crystal clear message on who you are and who you serve. And then that’s going to permeate essentially everything that you do. I say number two is having a fantastic digital presence, starting with the biggest pillar, which is the website, which is going to be the home. All roads need to lead there and that’s your asset to control. And then third, is I sit on the board of a nonprofit. And one thing that I like to preach is having a clear elevator speech for everybody that’s there. That way they can communicate that to somebody whether they’re getting an Airbnb, like, hey, what it is that you do. So going back to that clear message, just saying, hey, this is who I am, this is what I do for this fantastic foundation, and this is who we serve. having that individual approach, I think, can create some of the biggest ripples because if those people are out in the community, you don’t know who they’re going to connect with and who they’re going to touch, which is actually going to bring in some type of residual for the organization.
Lee Wochner:
So to constantly communicate your message, you have to know what your message is.
Jon Tsourakis:
Mm-hmm, absolutely.
Lee Wochner:
So, local government has a slightly different mission, of course. Local government, if you’re a city manager, let’s say, or a department manager, your mission is to inform the public about what’s going on, right? To notify them of changes, to make them aware of things that are happening and things they could do and should do and things like that. So, if you’re, what tips would you share for marketing for, let’s say, local government, local, county, state government? Is it the same?
Jon Tsourakis:
I think one is, I think there’s definitely similarities in there, right? The other is with local, I think it’s not just creating some newsletter and sending that out and hoping that everything is going to really connect. I think if we go into the elevator speech realm, that more grassroots, there should be scripts. Hey, this is what we’re saying in the community and this is how you should relate those messages. I think social media is definitely going to be a big push and then actually having something that’s worthwhile and not led from a place of fear where they can actually have some personality and talk about some things. I think that can also really engage. And I don’t think enough local government actually takes that opportunity. I think there is just like, oh, we don’t wanna be, you know, the viral post for doing something that embarrasses us. I think having some of that… optimism of like what could happen rather than you know the pessimism on the negative side can really reverberate and also get a message out especially in the community if you have that following good citizens do good things and if you can do something that perpetuates that I think that can have resounding impact.
Lee Wochner:
Now, I don’t know if you’ve come across this dynamic, but I’ve come to learn that sometimes there are nasty, foul-mouthed, ill-informed people on the internet. And sometimes they want to comment on someone’s post in a not flattering or really friendly way. So, what’s the best way to deal with that? Because if you’re trying to make your city work or you’re a nonprofit and somebody comes out and says, X, Y, Z about you, with flaming head emojis and all that. I mean, what’s the best way to, you’re just trying to be a friendly guy, communicate the message, hey, trash pickup is on Wednesday this week because of the holiday. And somebody says, oh, you and your trash pickup, you. I mean, let’s not be naive about what happens on this internet thing.
Jon Tsourakis:
Yeah, someone once told me that no matter what, 3% of the population is going to be absolutely upset about something and I rate and they’re going to make it look like it’s 80% of the audience. I think you got to lead with compassion. If there’s something that community manager can respond to that person, whether they want trash pickup on Wednesday rather than Tuesday and a form to fill out, I think that that’s a good way to lead. If somebody is looking to pick a fight, I think there’s some things you can do to flag a post and pull it off. And then other respects, there are some things that are just left unanswered and somebody else in the community will go ahead and jump in there, hopefully providing a better perspective.
Lee Wochner:
Yeah, there you go. All right. So, you know, we talk about social. It’s kind of a way of networking, right? There used to be person to person networking and that’s still around. And then there’s digital networking. What’s the difference between the two? I think of you as a good networker. I think I’ve been a good networker. And then there’s the digital networking that we both do because I’ll go somewhere on the internet. I’m like, damn it, there’s John Serakis again. What’s he doing here? What’s the difference in how to handle those two situations? When you’re, John, when you’re out personally networking or in a business setting or something versus digital networking, do you handle them differently?
Jon Tsourakis:
Yeah, entirely. I think the big differences are you don’t have to remember a lot when you’re physically around somebody. You can get away with a lot more in so far as you’re going to be at the same location, you can shake hands, you can have a conversation, and then it’s just you can just continually repeat that process when you see them out. You can take a very lazy approach by going to the same others. I think you’ve got to work a lot harder when it’s online because you have to be more thoughtful. You have to remember things. You have to be more organized to really nurture and keep those relationships. You actually get on somebody’s calendar to do it. And going back to the more thoughtful side, you have to give them more of a reason to be connected to you. When you’re in person with somebody, you’re like, hey, we should do coffee. And they’re like, yeah, that sounds like a good idea. And you whip out your phone. You’re like, hey, I was Tuesday at this time. You’re like, boom, you’re literally closing. the next engagement. But when you’re online and you send them an email, they can ignore that email or they can not respond to those things. So I think you need to be more diligent and thoughtful to do that. And in the end of that, yeah, when you’re miles apart from somebody, you need to be able to take the time and schedule. It could be a Zoom meeting or something like that. So I think those are the subtle differences. And if you wanna take it a step further. follow them on social media and actually engage with some of their posts. I mean, that means a lot to people. People like receiving credit for something that they do.
Lee Wochner:
Maybe we shouldn’t even talk about these things as separate. I think you’re really smart about that. But really, it’s all networking. And you, excuse me, I could send somebody an email, I can call them, I can comment on their social, I can hang on for it, write them a letter that arrives in the mail, or send them a postcard with a stamp on it,
Jon Tsourakis:
Yeah.
Lee Wochner:
right? And so there’s lots of different ways to reach out. And the old saying was, you know, the target has to hear from you seven times, right, for it to make an impression. And we have more opportunities than ever. But there is a difference between meeting someone in person, sharing a cup of coffee, shaking hands, things like that, versus let’s say Zoom all the time. So maybe it’s really about a healthy mix of the two, right?
Jon Tsourakis:
I agree. Yeah, I don’t think one’s more important than the other. I think they’re both important. I think they have different techniques to go and do them where they have the best possible outcomes. Yeah. And I love people. And I think that’s just a networking is just a byproduct of that. You want to meet more people, you want to connect more people. And I encourage others to do that as well. I think a lot of people think that there’s a form of rejection or a sense of judgment or cynicism that plays into it. And people are more inherently kinder and nicer if you give them the chance to be.
Lee Wochner:
I love hearing you say that, John. I know you love people. You know, you and I are kind of smart asses, but at the same time, we just like to enjoy
Jon Tsourakis:
We like to have fun
Lee Wochner:
yeah, we like to enjoy the day. And you know what? We both really do like people. I do like people. And I try to talk to everybody, especially the people I disagree with or who disagree with me. Like let’s find some common ground. There must be something to work on here that could make the world a little better tomorrow. It’s just a good attitude, don’t you think?
Jon Tsourakis:
Absolutely. When you can take something that is so personal to somebody and it’s the opposing thought that you have and have a conversation where you don’t make it personal about each other and you enjoy it, that to me is a beautiful thing when you can do that because it’s just two logical, intelligent people potentially talking about something that’s emotional and just sharing perspective. That creates a real bond and connectivity.
Lee Wochner:
Because we’re all here together in the same place and we’re all related. So why don’t we just talk it out?
Jon Tsourakis:
Yep, exactly.
Lee Wochner:
I know you and I are hopelessly naive, aren’t we? We’re just hopelessly naive. Ha ha ha.
Jon Tsourakis:
Yeah, we could be, we could be.
Lee Wochner:
Yeah, so, you know in the private sector people talk about sales Which as we know is part of your background and part of mine as well, although I hadn’t really thought about it that way But it’s true with Nonprofits, how does that relate to donations? I mean is there is there a sales effort going to try to make a sale when you’re running a non-profit
Jon Tsourakis:
Yeah, absolutely. I think fundraising needs to be a big component and it needs to be strategic and systematic in its approach. And for instance, do you want to go and ask for donations from people that may not have the funds available for you? All right, well, you need to have a better strategy and go to donors that would. And in that, I think there should be measured KPIs, performance indicators. for that approach. And then it should also be in a structured way, whether it’s in a pitch or a sales type of scenario, whether it’s going to be a tax write-off for somebody. So I think taking a lot of things from the private sector and moving those over to the nonprofit side can be wildly beneficial.
Lee Wochner:
So you just said KPIs, key performance indicators. And we run our agency on KPIs. We have two meetings a week that review different KPIs. And I have my own personal KPIs. Why is it important to set targets and measure results in this way? Why not just go do stuff every day and not worry about those numbers?
Jon Tsourakis:
Cause you lose track and you’re going to be trying to guide an organization. Let’s just say it’s like a, like a ship or something by, by your gut feeling. Like it’s the fly by the seat of your pants. That literally means you’re not looking at any of the dials and you’re just feeling that, you know, that the plane’s movement, you know, literally by the seat of your pants, um, and you’re not going to get to the destination in a reasonable, reasonable amount of time. And you’re going to waste a lot of resources when you have. the KPIs, the measurements, everybody understands how they’re performing and to what degree they are. And that way you can actually have a concerted effort by getting people to work together better. And then with that, like I said, you don’t waste the resources and you can hit your goals quicker. So it’s a more clear picture for everybody. Everybody knows where they’re at and you can get a lot done. So if somebody’s donating a dollar. the whole organization runs on KPIs, that dollar’s gonna go a hell of a lot further if it’s a measured approach.
Lee Wochner:
Yeah, it’s good because as you say, it helps you stay on track because there are a million things every day that would love to steal your focus. And then the other thing is, when you start any sort of marketing campaign, ideally you’ve started with a strategy, otherwise you’re just fumbling around, making mistakes as you point out. And the measurement of the KPIs will help you determine if the strategy is working or not, right? Gee, we hit our numbers, we’re exceeding our numbers. We’re missing all of these numbers every week. Something is wrong. We have to change something.
Jon Tsourakis:
Yeah, iterate. That’s another great point. And I don’t think a lot of people see that. I think we’re, as animals, we’re just naturally inclined to just want to go by our emotions rather than actually dig into the logic of what’s happening. And I think once we get a good handle on that, we get people together and really perform together as a unit.
Lee Wochner:
The funny thing is, so this programming thing, we as individuals, not just you and me, John, the human race as individuals,
Jon Tsourakis:
There’s more of us!
Lee Wochner:
we clarify, not just us. We individuals, individual humans are programmed to resist change
because safe keeps you alive. Change, running out in traffic, somebody will hit you, right? And so, you know, we’re descended from the hominids that survived on the savanna from the tiger, not eating them because they didn’t go over there and they stayed together as an example. But as a species, our secret recipe for success is adaptation. And so we always we collectively adapt and you can look at what we’ve done with the planet for good and for ill, right. And, and so we’re We’re ironically very adaptable on a collective basis, but not on an individual basis, which to me says, ineluctably that we should work together because that’s where our strength is. Our strength is respecting the network and working together. That’s how we adapt the best.
Jon Tsourakis:
Hmm. I agree. I agree. And it also reminds me, I think it was, uh, it’s a line from Men in Black, where he says, uh, a person is logical, but a group is crazy.
Jon Tsourakis:
Right. Or, you know, it’s antithetical to what you were saying, but I think once you actually get those things in line, it actually, uh, could make things a lot.
Lee Wochner:
There you go. We’re gonna take a break. We’ll be right back with digital marketer, John Tsourakis to talk about management, trends, change and the future. Stick around.
Jaclyn Uloth:
Hi, this is Jaclyn with Counterintuity.
Being compliant with the Americans with Disability Act on your website is the right thing to do, so that everyone can visit and use your website. But did you know that it’s also a legal requirement? By ensuring your website meets ADA compliance standards, you make it more accessible to people with disabilities, improving their user experience and expanding your audience. And by complying with ADA regulations, you can avoid legal issues and protect your organization from expensive lawsuits.
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Lee Wochner:
We’re talking with digital marketer, John Tsourakis. John, what can, let’s talk about management for a little bit. What can nonprofits in your experience learn from the private sector in terms of management and marketing? What do you think they can learn from, because you have a lot of for-profit clients, right? What can nonprofits pick up there?
Jon Tsourakis:
I think having, I think, and I hope this doesn’t come off the wrong way, but like real, real seriousness. I’ve seen some nonprofits not have the same structure and kind of what we were touching on earlier, the same measurements in place for all of their team members. And I think because there’s a lot of compassion when it comes to a cause, some of that gets lost. where there needs to be a real hard line on the function and what somebody does for that organization. And I see that more in the private sector than I do in the nonprofit side.
Lee Wochner:
In my own work with nonprofits, you’re talking about structure, and I agree with that. There’s a lot of passion there. That’s a good word. The entrepreneurial spirit is built off of passion, and they’re trying to accomplish something. I’ve worked with very large nonprofits and small nonprofits, and I have run a few nonprofits, and today I’m on three nonprofit boards. huge respect for the effort they put into it. They always feel under resourced. And so what I try to do with them is I try to get them to do less because they want to do everything. And if they could do less, they could succeed more in doing those fewer things. And I’m getting ready to do a strategic phase with a pro bono for a nonprofit I’m involved with because I just think the world of them and they’re accomplishing a lot. and do less, do less and do it better.
Jon Tsourakis:
I agree. Yeah. I think it was Matthew McConaughey was saying a few days ago, maybe a few weeks ago where it was you can do seven things and get Bs on them or you can do two things and get A’s on them, do the two things and get A’s on them. And I also see that when it comes to marketing as well. You’re going to have 10 channels that are all subpar when you could just really narrow that down to potentially two or three and really just crush it. to get the engagement and the responses.
Lee Wochner:
So let’s flip the funnel. What can the private sector learn from nonprofit companies?
Jon Tsourakis:
I think having a more clear cause and really showing the compassion for their people and their clients and customers for sure.
Lee Wochner:
So going back to the social media thing we were talking about, right? The ups and downs, the positives and the negatives. In our socially engaged era, how important is it for private companies to express who they are and how they act? You’re in the state of the company
Jon Tsourakis:
I think it’ll
Lee Wochner:
state that has a company called Disney in it, which has been in the headlines in this area.
Jon Tsourakis:
Hahaha!
Jon Tsourakis:
Yeah. And I think not even thinking of that, but now that you mentioned it, it all comes down to your, your customers and your clients. What’s important to them. That’s, that should be the purpose of your company to serve them. And if that’s what’s important to them, then by all means, I think you should do it. If it’s going to create a best or better customer experience, and this might get a little bit capitalistic, but, um, that ultimately that’s what it should be. If you’re a purpose-driven organization that doesn’t align with your customers or your clients, you deserve to go out of business because that’s just how that formula and equation is. There is no entitlement on that side. So circling it back, yeah, if that’s what your customers want, by all means.
Lee Wochner:
There’s a piece in today’s New York Times, an opinion piece, saying that the looming failure of Twitter proves that capitalism is strong because capitalism has internal checks and balances and Twitter is failing in every way and the new management is a disaster. And so their failure, having lost 50% of the ad revenue and a whole bunch of people on it, proved that the internal checks and balances of capitalism are strong. And I found that very interesting.
Jon Tsourakis:
Yeah, and I think with that too, you’re trying to take something that made most or got most of its attention, made most of its money by offering it free to so many people. And then now you’re going to just begin charging off of a very limited base.
Lee Wochner:
Mm-hmm.
Jon Tsourakis:
It’s a zero sum game. I don’t think that’s going to end up well, or you’re just going to have substantially smaller company that is not what we recognize it today. But yes, capitalism is… literally making that happen.
Lee Wochner:
So let’s talk about people in the workplace for a couple of minutes. So I found this interesting and you’re kind of saying this to be outrageous and get attention, I know, but here you go. You’ve said that procrastinators make some of the best employees, which is something that sounds horrific, by the way, John. What on earth do you mean by that? And can you tell me now or do I have to wait?
Jon Tsourakis:
They do. The reason they make some of the best employees is because they actually have a lot of ownership. They also are perfectionists, most of them. When you can really dig in and create the space necessary so they can actually deliver something on time and be able to work with others, you can get some fantastic work. and that they’re really, they’re people, they’re good people. They just have some issues and really understanding procrastination, right? Why does somebody procrastinate? Well, it usually comes down to decision-making and they’re gonna use time to help make that decision. So when you can help them make the decisions necessary and you give them a project, it can get a little bit hairy sometimes toward the end, but with experience and working with these people and they always deliver. it can create some really fantastic work. It’s not necessarily a quality that I look for, but when I see it, it’s not somebody that I necessarily punish. It’s somebody that I can really cultivate if they have the right minerals. And the beauty of it is, once they actually learn and they figure out why they’re a procrastinator, they still have the other qualities and they start delivering work on time. So if anybody else is dealing with procrastinators and they might write them off too quickly, I’d say, no, take the time, really dig in. help them with the decisions that they make, really look at their ability to really own a project or a task and nurture them the best that you can. And they may turn out to surprise you and be one of your best.
Lee Wochner:
It’s nice to hear you talk about nurturing people. That’s really, that’s great. I mean, everybody has something they’re bringing to the game. But on the flip side, let’s talk about burnout. What do you do? Have you ever seen burnout in any of your people? Do you, what do you do about that?
Jon Tsourakis:
Yeah, when you’re dealing with all these procrastinators, they will burn you out. No.
Yeah, I’m dealt with burnout. And ultimately it’s something that escapes me while I’m getting close to it or while I’m in it. And it comes down to just being really truthful to yourself. Like just being true and just saying like, okay, well, what’s true right now for me? And then how do I feel? And I think a lot of high performers deal with burnout because they, for high performers, work gives purpose. And when work gives purpose, you really like to work. And the thing is you might neglect how you feel on an emotional level, kind of pushing through and hitting specific goals. But I think that point of being really true to yourself and being compassionate with yourself can pull you through. And that compassion means like sometimes you gotta take a little bit of rest. Sometimes you need to tell people, hey, I gotta push this out a couple weeks. When you have really high integrity, that can be hard. So those two things will conflict with one another. But I think finding the balance comes down to just, once again, just being really true to yourself. Like, what’s happening now? What does this actually mean? And what do I need?
Lee Wochner:
I’ve seen a lot of burnout in all sorts of businesses over the years, not usually the founder. The founder still has a big mission driven impulse to achieve something in a nonprofit or a for-profit. But I think especially with a nonprofit, you care so much about what you’re doing. And then when you’re not really moving that ball forward, it’s easy to get burned out. And sometimes, As you say, people need to take a break. And sometimes they need to realize that they, maybe there’s an alternative for them that would reignite their passion in a different place.
Jon Tsourakis:
Yeah, I agree. And I think it’s with that passion and you’re trying to make so many people happy, there’s all these perspectives that are coming at you. And in a non-schizophrenic way, like you’re hearing all of those voices and that can wear you down like, oh, what if this or what if I don’t do this or I have to do this? And it can really wear you down. So I think taking a very Zen approach. and it may be finding something else that you want to do or going back to what we were talking about earlier, just do less, do less, find essentialism and then use that as your base and then build.
Lee Wochner:
So I read the book, Essentialism, and it took about 15 chapters to say what you just said in three sentences. And I’m like, this book needs to boil it down to Essentialism, which is like three sentences.
Jon Tsourakis:
I know the irony of it. Yeah, it’s like the book radical candor. Like, I mean, okay, like, yeah you could sum it up
Lee Wochner:
I got it. I got it
Jon Tsourakis:
Yeah. Yeah, totally.
Lee Wochner:
Page one, thank you. Be straightforward. Be straightforward, the end. Please pay me 15.99, yeah, for the book. So we got a few minutes left. I want to talk about trends change in the future because you and I both work in marketing and so we’re always looking forward. What are the digital marketing trends that people should watch for?
Jon Tsourakis:
Absolutely AI, without a shadow of a doubt. So there’s some fantastic things that are happening with it. It’s not this panacea, silver bullet, that’s going to cure all of your woes. I think it’s a tool, much as a monkey wrench is to a plumber, you still need a plumber in place to make the right decisions and the right strategy. But with AI, it can give you what a lot of interns would give you in the past. It can really help with research. do everything from grammar, it can help with prompts, but you really need a good decision maker in place. I think some of the other things that are on the horizon are better forecasting. There are a lot of tools out there now that are helping. Some, of course, touch with on the AI side of things. And I think some of the other emerging things that are also occurring are on the social media front. There’s always a new platform, whether it’s going to be threads, which is a competitor to Twitter or TikTok or some of these others. And the people that get on those platforms, the, the soonest, uh, to get their message out and don’t wait, have a huge organic advantage of everybody else. So I think those are, um, the three things I see, uh, the most that I’m always looking at from, from a marketing person.
Lee Wochner:
So you’re not afraid that terrifying artificial intelligence robots are going to swarm the planet and wipe us out, John?
Jon Tsourakis:
No, I don’t. I think there’s always these fears that are going on in the zeitgeist and it’s a necessary evil where there is going to be another flip side to that we’ll call it the good, if you will, that make everything okay, right? You could have the scare, what was it? Can’t remember, what was the 1999 to 2000 scare? Like, prison doors are gonna open. Yeah, this is just the new millennium book. Right, this is what we’re talking about. You have James Cameron coming out. This is what I warned you about in the 80s. Well, that’s a great way to sell a few more films. But
Lee Wochner:
Yeah. Oh yeah, the millennium bug.
Jon Tsourakis:
I think we’re eventually, I mean, I think we’re gonna figure it out. We’re gonna be okay. Yeah, of course there’s some bad actors. They’re gonna use it for ill will, but I think more than not, it’s gonna be a tool and it’s gonna be our friend.
Lee Wochner:
What’s your overall take on the future?
Jon Tsourakis:
Positive. Yeah. I think everything’s going to be all right. I think we’re probably living in the best era right now, but we always neglect to look at it that way, just because we’re humans and we’re always a bit restless with what can be better and what can be good. But I think overall, I think we’re going to figure it out as we always have and we always will.
Lee Wochner:
I agree with you. You know, we’re in a period of great change, right? So change and turmoil are always upsetting. But when people talk about the good old days, it just drives me crazy. And I ask them, well, when were they? Was it during the Black Plague? Was it during the lynchings? World War I, World War II? Tell me when that was. And I’m concerned about environmental degradation, but I actually remain hopeful there, right? There are things being worked on. I don’t think I’m hopelessly naive. I mean, I’ve done some research. I think there are some trend lines that are positive but um, I see kids every day and I love kids and i’m like You want to pass this message of negativity onto kids? Why don’t why don’t we inspire them to that? You know it’ll they can do better. We’ll do better. It’ll be okay
Jon Tsourakis:
Hahaha!
Jon Tsourakis:
I think we’re all a bunch of procrastinators and we’ll get it right just before the end point. We continually do.
Lee Wochner:
Hahaha. If there’s one thing you hope people take away from this conversation John, what would you hope it would be?
Jon Tsourakis:
If anybody was to take anything away from this, I think one is that Oyova is better than Counterintuity. Two.
Lee Wochner:
So you just undercut any credibility you had. That’s so sad.
Jon Tsourakis:
I know, I just had a slip one in. You can edit that out. I think if anybody had to take anything away from this conversation, I think it’s about just connecting with others, whether that’s going to be through marketing, whether that’s going to be through a private company, through a nonprofit, or just in a one-on-one conversation. That is what makes life so special. And then when you get really good at that, all that does is perpetuate the positive energy that makes this planet that much better.
Lee Wochner:
So I’m gonna throw you a softball that I just was reminded of again this morning when I got an email from you. You end every email with the word positively. Nobody else does that, John. Why do you end every email with positively, John?
Jon Tsourakis:
because it’s contagious.
Lee Wochner:
Oh, good for you, man. That’s beautiful.
Jon Tsourakis:
Thank you
Lee Wochner:
All right, well, thanks, John. It’s been great having you and you keep working at it and you’ll achieve the status that we have here at Counterintuity.
Jon Tsourakis:
Yes! I knew you’d get one back! Thank you!
Lee Wochner:
Hey, bonus question. So today’s Wednesday. Last Wednesday you got married. You’ve been married for a week
Jon Tsourakis:
I did. I’ve been married for a week. Yeah, it’s been fantastic.
Lee Wochner:
Congrats, man. How’s it going?
Jon Tsourakis:
Thank you so much. It’s going really well. It’s going really well. Yeah, we’re looking forward to the next week
Lee Wochner:
Yeah, you certainly want that especially in that first week. Like if you go not going so well, that’s a warning sign. But hats off to you. I think she’s terrific. I know her through you. I think she’s terrific and I hope she knows what she got. So, in you. Yeah.
Jon Tsourakis:
Thank you so much. Thank you. Really appreciate it.
Lee Wochner:
Hey Jon, it’s been a real pleasure, man. Thanks so much.
Jon Tsourakis:
No, pleasure’s all here, man, really appreciate it.
Lee Wochner:
Take care.
Jon Tsourakis:
You too.
Jaclyn Uloth:
Thanks for listening we’re glad you came. That’s What C! Said is produced by Lisa Pham and engineered by Joe Curet. It’s available on Apple podcast, Spotify and whereever you get your podcast. Please like and follow the show. Visit Counterintuity.com to sign up and learn more.