Orchestrating success: Lessons from a triumphant comeback

Paul Jan Zdunek:
A lot of people didn’t want to talk to us until we had a plan. And so it was sort of a race to the end, racing the clock

Lee Wochner:
Just over 10 years ago, the historic Pasadena Symphony was in turmoil. Sales and donations were in a fugue, the marketing was off-key, and there was real talk of the Symphony and its music crashing to an end. But new CEO Paul Jan Zdunek changed the sheet music, putting into place a new management plan and marketing efforts that turned the Symphony’s dirge into something everyone could applaud. Since then, Paul has gained recognition as a turnaround artist for nonprofits, arts organizations, and others looking to make a real impact. Today we talk with Paul about how to market the arts, how to score nonprofit turnarounds, and how we can all achieve management harmony, on “That’s What C! Said.”

Jaclyn Uloth:
Welcome to the podcast that lightens the tension when things sort of get hard…
That’s What C! Said, the Counterintuity podcast, featuring interviews with leaders and doers who have helped to make our world a better place through their actions — and especially through marketing, communications, and embracing change. Here’s host Lee Wochner.

Lee Wochner:
Paul, great to talk to you today. It’s been too long.

Paul Jan Zdunek:
I know, it’s been way too long.

Lee Wochner:
So, you know, in preparation for this, I was reflecting on our storied friendship and past. You and I met 15 years ago, it was about 15 years ago, I know, isn’t that crazy? And we were introduced by a mutual friend in the arts, and you had just landed at Pasadena Symphony and Pops as their new president and CEO. How did you wind up in that role?

Paul Jan Zdunek:
Well, I had been doing some turnarounds in the arts a few years before that, and I guess it got a reputation, and especially with the person who introduced us, she knew about my turnarounds in those areas. One was another symphony and one was a state theater that George Lucas grew up in. And Pasadena Symphony and Pops happened to be blowing up at the time. And…

between our mutual friend and actually a colleague who was on contract basis with the symphony at the time suggested that they hire me to come down and see if it’s salvageable. And so I came down for a couple of just initial consultation meetings and was able through some basic information gathering, able to show them that it is possible to get out of this. I mean, it’s gonna be tough, but if they’re ready to sort of walk the road, then we can do it together and get ourselves out of this. And yeah, it wound up being true, but not without a lot of twists and turns in between.

Lee Wochner:
Well, this is one of the reasons I’m excited to speak with you today. And as we’re going to discuss in a little bit, the arts are certainly facing a lot of challenges right now. And I know that you and I are both hopeful and we both bring some experience to turnarounds. So it’s an exciting time for this conversation. So when you say Passing a Symphony was blowing up, I mean, that sounds terrible. What did you find when you arrived?

Paul Jan Zdunek:
Oh, and I don’t say blowing up lightly because they literally were, and this is in the paper or in the media, they were literally thinking about just shuttering their closing finishing the season closing for good so they were at the edge of whether they were going to stay open or not so like I said I don’t say blowing up lightly and and you know coming down obviously there were money issues financial issues you know they were spending more than they were bringing in. But then there were also all kinds of issues. And I think it’s a really interesting case study because almost every line item, every expense and every revenue line item needed to be scrutinized, including the employee line item. You know, do we have the right people in the right places? And do we have too many people? Do we have not enough people? And so truly everything had to be looked at from marketing operations, finance, board governance, staffing, artistic product, mission, I mean all of it. It had to be really, you know, we had to kind of go back to basics and figure out did they build the right thing and where were the problem issues.

Lee Wochner:
About 24 years ago, I was asked to take over and turn around an arts organization and was myself shocked at what I found when I arrived. And I’ll never forget the day that I decided to get in the car and drive around town and meet with every key stakeholder and say, I need a check for X so that we can keep doing this.

Paul Jan Zdunek:
Yeah.

Lee Wochner:
And I got enough of those checks. Did you have similar situations?

Paul Jan Zdunek:
Absolutely. And what was interesting is, you know, because the symphony, well, both, so the other issue to kind of back up one is about a year, year and a half before I came down, the symphony and the, what was that the passing the symphony and the passing of pops had merged. And so it was a year into it. And obviously with mergers, there should be some efficiencies of scale and so forth. But a year and a half into it, neither were doing well. But before that, they each had their own 80 -year history and 30 -year history of supporters and board members and so forth to draw upon. And these were people who were leaders in the community. But to your question, before anyone was going to throw more money at what they saw was the Titanic, they wanted to know what the plan was. And so it was kind of chicken and egg, but we had to develop a quick plan that was reasonable, that made sense, while we were still digging out what the information was and what the real problems were. So it was a very quick and very tense time to say, look, and finally, I think this was about I would say four months into my tenure there, we did actually, on the steps of where we performed at the time, which was the Pasadena Civic Auditorium, made a very public statement about what our plan was. And we included the mayor and we included a number of key stakeholders, key artistic personnel, and said, here’s the plan. We were very transparent. And then we took that plan and did what you did, which is then drive around town. And we were everybody. But a lot of people didn’t want to talk to us until we had a plan. And so it was sort of a race to the end, racing the clock, because we also had concerts. We also said, OK, well, we’re going to pare down. We’re going to continue the season. We’re not going to close, because if we close, it’s way harder to come back once you’ve closed, even if you take a pause. Because once you take a pause, people kind of forget you. And it takes a lot longer to restart, as you know.

Lee Wochner:
I had a conversation yesterday with a nonprofit leader up in the Bay Area, excuse me, San Francisco Bay Area. And he, at the end of the conversation, he asked me, what’s the number one mistake nonprofit leaders make? Which was an interesting question. And I said, we’re so committed to the mission that sometimes we just stay head down and we don’t involve other people, right? And listening to your story, which you did right away was you involved other people so that there are more people with a vested interest who will help.

Paul Jan Zdunek:
Right, including, including leaders who were even at a distance a bit from the organization. So it didn’t seem self -serving, such as the mayor. The mayor knew about the organization, certainly supported it, but wasn’t on the board or wasn’t, you know, so far into the organization that it felt self -serving. And I think that’s the other thing, because I did the same thing at the other two organizations that I turned around. I think it’s really important to get to know your community leaders, those who are the movers and shakers who can also help galvanized the rest of the community, both those who are already involved and those who might want to get involved. And I think sometimes we don’t think about that, especially in a crisis, we don’t think about that. We don’t think about bringing new people on or talking about new people to come in and help when they’re right in front of us.

Lee Wochner:
Well, I was thrilled to be part of the team here at Counterintuity that worked on the marketing for Passing the Symphony and Pops and got to work with you and worked with the Pops, Symphony and Pops for about eight, 10 years. Had a lot of fun. What role did marketing play in that turnaround?

Paul Jan Zdunek:
So we brought you in because, like I said, the two organizations had merged. There was sort of a mixed message of what the brand was to be, and certainly not an overall brand. And also there was a youth orchestra component too. And they were trying to sort of brand all three of them. And I think there was a sort of brand misdirection, brand confusion, and then even in addition to that, their own brands before that really didn’t connect with the community. And as you said, you know, really didn’t talk about what the experience was going to be. You know, it was either, you know, an old white guy shaking a stick at you or some musicians playing their instruments in tuxedos and or even white tuxedos with the pops. But I mean, that doesn’t really talk to those who, that’s sort of inside baseball, right? And it’s not the people who would think about going to the organization, the symphony or the pops, and just hadn’t been before, it doesn’t really give them any reason to, because it’s an inside baseball branding.

Lee Wochner:
So I have to admit to being immensely flattered that 15 years later, you’re still quoting me because what happened at that lunch was you brought all of your marketing materials and I was straight up with you. And I said, you know, I’m sure well -intentioned people put this together, but it doesn’t communicate the experience. And indeed it was a bunch of mean looking old guys waving sticks at you and such. And then the shots of the orchestra who were doing that all of the shots seem to be like three miles away. And I’m like, this is not about me wanting to go there. And you know what? I love the arts. I love music. I love passing the symphony. And you go there and it sounds astonishing, the symphony and the pops, and we should communicate that. And I was so excited about it. And then I was excited about the other personnel you brought on board, like David Lockington, right? And Michael Feinstein. I mean, I…

And we did banners around town with David Lockington, the conductor on it. And to me, David was just like David Bowie. And I was trying to pose him like that because he brings a snap crackle pop to what he does that’s exciting. And he was game for that. He was willing to just run with that. And it was just the most freaking fun I’ve had in so many years working on all of that with you guys.

Paul Jan Zdunek:
Yeah, no, those photos, those banners that we put up around town. You know, again, I think we have to look at it and I will get to this later, but I think we have to look at it from outside of what our organizations are and do. And we have to look at everything that we brand and sell and market as an outsider. And those banners were attractive. They were friendly. They were exciting. They made you think, oh, who is that guy? Who is that David Bowie guy?

Paul Jan Zdunek:
And, you know, same thing with the Michael Feinstein photos, you know, with the Pops, you know, really talking about which is what we heard all the time, right? And what you do here, say with an outside event like the Pops is I go there because I want to have dinner with my friends. Oh, and there happens to be an orchestra there. And we kept pushing the orchestra and kept pushing the concert and weren’t really pushing the experience that everyone kept talking to us about. And I think a lot of organizations don’t listen that way and they keep pushing what they think they should push as opposed to what their constituents are telling them, what they enjoy about it.

Lee Wochner:
Um, okay. So to tie a bow on all this, um, you, uh, because we could talk about this for, for quite a long time and, and, uh, and relive all that joy. What was the, what was the end result of, uh, of all of those efforts? Because passing a symphony and pops, um, still exists and it’s going strong. So what was the, what was the end result, Paul?

Paul Jan Zdunek:
Yeah, and I’m glad you said that because I do want to say that while it was in crisis and truly was looking at going out of business, it is going strong. We put people in place. We put a not a new board, but we developed a new a newer board that was there for the organization and not there for their own legacy, which is I think is important. We put staff in place that were professional who had the experience and also had the the vision to look inside and outside and everything we’re talking about and set up a structure with, you know, artistic directors and so forth that really, and the branding and the marketing and the sales, that really was sustainable. You know, it didn’t rely on any one person. And we built an infrastructure that is, I’m very happy and proud to say is still in place today. A lot of things that we put into place at that time were radical and they’re still in place today and I think what’s making the symphony and the pops extremely successful still, you know almost 17 18 years later, which is fantastic.

Lee Wochner:
So since you’re Aegis at the Pasadena Symphony and Pops, you’ve been applying your management background and your MBA and your sheer smarts on a number of successful turnarounds, both nonprofit and commercial. Let’s say that a nonprofit is struggling. What do you think is the first thing leaders should do to set that straight?

Paul Jan Zdunek:
Well, I’ll expand it beyond nonprofit because I, you know, having done, as you said, both for and non for profit nonprofit, I found a through line. And one of the things you have to start with is why do you exist? Like, who cares? Like if you went out of business tomorrow, who really cares? And when I first asked that question, especially if I ask it an open board meeting, everyone gets very offended and ticked off.

Paul Jan Zdunek:
And then they realize what I’m really trying to get at, which is, what’s your purpose? You know, like, and if, and if you say, well, it’s, it’s to make great music or great art, or we want to serve the community or save the community or be the best social services for the community.

Everybody’s saying that, right? I mean, it’s kind of like opening up a winery. Why do you want to open up a winery? Because we want to make great wine. Well, so does every billion other winery want to do the same thing. So I think you really have to look hard and deep into why do you exist? Who is your competition? Look around. Does the world need you? And I think that, especially with nonprofits, because there are a lot of…

Paul Jan Zdunek:
leaders who start nonprofits for their own reasons, for their own ego, for their own legacy. And it may or may not be needed in the community or in the world. Or it may be that you’re, especially like here in LA, you’re developing something that 10 other organizations of the same exist within a five mile radius. So do you really need to plant your seed here or can you maybe go out 20 miles and plant it over there?

But people say, well, I want to be in LA, so I’m going to plant it here. But it doesn’t make sense from a competitive standpoint. So really, truly, it’s why do you exist? Because everything else is built on top of that. You can’t have a marketing or sales strategy unless you know why you exist.

Lee Wochner:
It’s interesting, for the past couple of months here on this podcast, every conversation has wound around to branding and not from me. But essentially that’s, as you know, that’s what you’re talking about. Identity and then why do you exist and who cares? And those are all branding issues. And that’s right where I was going, yep.

Paul Jan Zdunek:
And with brand becomes that differentiator, right? I mean, talking about what is your differentiator? Because who needs another whatever, even though it’s might be awesome.

Lee Wochner:
Yeah, finding the central value proposition, the unique sales proposition that people want. And it doesn’t matter if it’s commercial or nonprofit. So we live in a time of great change. I’ve been thinking about this a lot as well. My mother recently left this mortal plane at age 98. And I’ve thought about the speed of change in her lifetime, which was fantastic. I mean, she was born in 19, uh -oh, now I’m doing the math, 1927?

26. And she was 98. And man, there’s a lot of change in her lifetime. And it feels like right now, there’s just a wrap as rapid a period of change. Do you have any thoughts about the best way people can handle change or prepare for change at this time?

Paul Jan Zdunek:
It’s a great question. I thought you were going to ask something else. They prepare for it.

Paul Jan Zdunek:
You know, in a sense, existential question. I think, first of all, I think that there’s a lot of change now and a lot of what I call information coming at us, right? It could be change, it could be just random pieces of information because of the internet, because of social media, because we’re connected to the world, right? I mean, we know stuff that’s happening before other people do, like the Ukraine war. Like we know some things that are happening before the Ukrainians do because we see it on TV or whatever. And that’s crazy. And so I think the one thing is we have to, as far as preparing for, just know that, you know, what’s the constant change, right? That phrase, you know, change is always going to be there. But now there’s so much change. How we prepare for it, I believe, is kind of what I built my my book on, which is having a foundation upon which to rest everything else. Because if you’re not, if you’re not centered, if you don’t have a foundation, this goes back to whether it’s yourself or whether it’s your company or whether it’s your nonprofit. If you don’t have a foundation and a centeredness to why you exist and what you, what you believe, what drives you, then all this information is gonna be extremely confusing and extremely chaotic because you are then dealing with it in real time and there are tons of information coming in every minute, every day, and it’s gonna be impossible to keep up with. So really, as the more complicated data gets, the more complicated and fast information comes at us, I think we have to become more simplistic and more centered and more focused to be able to handle all that.

Lee Wochner:
Well said. When you landed on the word focus, you had me because that’s absolutely right. So let’s talk about the arts for a minute, which has provided a lot of focus for both of us in our lives and our careers. You’ve got a fascinating background, much of it in the arts. How did you first get involved in the arts? What drew you to the arts?

Paul Jan Zdunek:
I wandered into it, truly. You know, I grew up in Baltimore as a latchkey kid and was running on the streets and getting into all kinds of trouble. And then somebody started a boy choir and took all of us, ragtag people and made us sing Beethoven and Mozart and all these high notes, which were awesome, but got us off the streets and got us focused. And then, you know, he got me into piano lessons and then my piano teacher got me into organ lessons and, you know, sort of the rest is history. And I actually, within two years of starting piano, my piano teacher said, I’ll teach you organ. My cousin has a church job open. It’s just probably a couple of hymns and whatever. So I’m like, okay, sure. I was stupid, you know, being stupid. It helps a lot. And so I said sure and so she taught me some things. I took the audition and wound up being way over my head because it was a four -part adult choir. It was a Lutheran church so they sang everything. So basically I spent my entire high school every day after school for three or four hours practicing for the one -hour service on Sunday and I still screwed it up.

Paul Jan Zdunek:
I can’t believe they didn’t fire me after a couple of weeks, but somehow they let me hang on for a couple of years and I got the hang of it and wound up actually doing that to pay for high school and college and beyond. So it was good money. I never had to wait tables. I was just always picking up a service or a wedding or a funeral or whatever I could play.

Lee Wochner:
Well, I’ll tell you, I was raised Lutheran and we are exacting people. But we want things done right, but I’m glad to hear that they were nice to you. So, like you, the arts have just been a saving grace. But the other thing I wanna say here is, most of my background’s the theater. And…

Paul Jan Zdunek:
But you’re also forgiving people because it was a terrible.

Paul Jan Zdunek:
Yeah.

Lee Wochner:
I had a friend sadly departed who used to say, if the apocalypse happens, what you want is you want to theater people on your island because they can make, build, fix and do anything because they’re used to limited resources and no money and doing it all. What is it in your experience, what do you think it is about the arts that prepares people? I’m so astonished.

by the talents and capabilities of arts people, right? So what is it about the arts you think that manifests that? I mean, look at yourself. Look at what you’ve been able to achieve and your background is the arts. What is it about the arts?

Paul Jan Zdunek:
I think it’s that we try to solve for things creatively. Like we are creative problem solvers.
Yes, I mean, I think that’s interesting. It’s sort of the arts and nonprofits. We try to do it on a shoestring. So we are very frugal and very efficient with our time and our money and how we do that, solve for that creatively. But I think also the things that I think make a really successful person is you’re also curious, right? Arts people are curious. And so you’re curious to find out about, you know, what

Paul Jan Zdunek:
why this note goes to that note, what the writer and playwright meant when they were trying to create this character, what the story really means beyond the words, what’s beyond the obvious. So really looking beyond the obvious, being curious, being creative in how you approach that solution, and also being committed. I feel like arts people are very committed because it’s a very disciplined art. You have to be disciplined and especially for music, you know, you don’t just pick it up when you go to college and say, oh, I want to be a musician. And you start your lessons, you know, just after high school, you started lessons, you know, 10 years before that, at least. And so, you know, it’s a very disciplined. So again, curious, creative, committed, disciplined and. I don’t know, for me, it’s also a little bit of Disney magic, you never giving up. You know, always think that, like with, you know, I grew up on cartoons, so Wile E. Coyote was my mentor, you know, no matter what happened to him, he always showed up in the next frame alive, ready to go. So that’s kind of how I live my life.

Lee Wochner:
Great answer. We’re gonna take a short break here, but when we come back, Paul and I will be talking about nonprofit management and what he’s learned there and in the corporate world. Stick around.

Jaclyn Uloth:
Hi, this is Jaclyn with Counterintuity.

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Lee Wochner:
And we’re back with former nonprofit leader and now executive and consultant, Paul Jansdunek. So several years ago, you made a career change, as some of us do, and transitioned from the nonprofit arts sector, where you were a dynamic leader, to corporate consulting and then executive management. What spurred this change?

Paul Jan Zdunek:
Well, I was doing well with the nonprofit turnarounds. And, you know, as a kid, I was always interested and always entrepreneurial and always interested in business. And even actually when I was a conductor for my first 15 years of my career, when I gave up conducting, it was because I was much more interested in the business part of.

the organizations I was either artistic director of or conducting, you know, are interested in the finances, interested in the marketing and sales, interested in the board governance, interested in media. And so I actually pivoted from conducting to the management side of the arts because of that. And then from there, I just even wanted more and wanted sort of to play in a bigger pond and I don’t know, I always thought that, you know, corporate world was much more interesting because, because they were focused on basic metrics and, and money and, you know, sort of more black and white. It wasn’t all of this bleeding heart stuff that you get in the nonprofit.

And it’s not bad or good. I mean, the bleeding heart is there because, as you said earlier, people believe in the mission. And so there’s got to be that passion. But what was frustrating me, quite frankly, is, and we almost talked about it earlier, is that this idea of sales was such a dirty word and is still such a dirty word in the arts and in non -profit. I even worked with a private school who had to make X amount of money per year to pay all the teachers and have the campus taken care of. And they didn’t want to talk about tuition, but that’s what was driving their revenue. And so it was really to kind of get a different perspective from just the passion and really talk about, what is it like to run a business and what are all the ins and outs of that?

Lee Wochner:
So when you and I had that first fateful lunch, one of the things we wound up talking about, because I remember it vividly, one of the things we talked about was entrepreneurship and applying entrepreneurship to arts organizations and to nonprofits. And that’s one of the things that I try to do here every day, because if we want to make the world a better place, we need the nonprofits to succeed.

And by the way, in a minute we can talk about what the commercial enterprises need to succeed better. So we need them to succeed if we want a better world. And we had agreed that there were some elements of what entrepreneurship and the commercial sector had that could be applied better in the nonprofit world. What would you say some of those are? Like if you were back, if you were, speaking to 50 nonprofit leaders right now and being helpful, right? What would you counsel them to do?

Paul Jan Zdunek:
Well, again, starting with what is, why do you exist? I mean, if you can’t answer that, then just go home, right? There’s no other question beyond that. And really understanding what your differentiators and why the world needs you. Then beyond that, if you can come up with that, what does it take? What’s the money situation? What’s the financial situation that’s going to, do you have, do you have, because basically look, organizations, whether they’re for profit or nonprofit, you’re selling something to somebody else, right? People are paying money to your organization and you’re either giving them a work of art, a performance, a play.

or you’re giving them a widget or an Apple computer or whatever, right? There has to be that basic equation of, I have something that you want to buy or you want to pay money for or you want to donate to. And if you don’t have that, then it doesn’t matter. Like just then do it for fun. Don’t make it a business, right? Yes. Well, right. It’s sort of a, yeah. So, and there has to be a market for it, right?

Lee Wochner:
What we call trade, yes.

Paul Jan Zdunek:
Yes. Well, right. It’s sort of a, yeah. So, and there has to be a market for it, right?
There has to be a market for whatever you’re doing. And if there’s a financial market for whatever you’re doing, and if there’s not, then again, do it for fun, do it as a hobby, but don’t make a business out of it. And then I think from an entrepreneurial standpoint, don’t be afraid of making calculated risks, right? And what’s funny or interesting or sad about the arts or nonprofits is that,

We have this idea of doing something for the world and changing the world and yet we don’t want to take any risk to do it. Well, you know.

You have to take risk if you want to change the world. And if you want to be creative and you want to do something that no one else has done, there’s got to be risk involved. And if it’s calculated risk, it’s okay. And if you fail and you learn from it, you move on. But so many nonprofits, because of the word nonprofit, don’t want to put the money or lose money taking that risk. And so they just don’t. And no one’s ever gotten anywhere by not taking a risk.

Lee Wochner:
You and I live in a town, Los Angeles, where I have seen absolutely life -changing live performance art. I mean, and on all sorts of scale. I’ve seen incredible things at Highways Performance Center in Santa Monica, right? Really, you know, that’s small bones. I’ve seen great stuff. There’s theater companies I love. I’ll name one, Burglar’s of Ham. I mean, I saw a show of theirs, almost 20. Four years ago that I still think about. I mean, I’ve seen lots of their shows. There are things that really stick to me and they were risky. And also on the big theater, I’ve seen great stuff that really impacted me done by Center Theater Group and passing into Playhouse and other places, right? And right now I’m seeing less of that. And I don’t mean to criticize anybody because I think it’s been tough with the pandemic and with rising costs and all these other things, but we seem to be in a time where we’re afraid to take any more chances because the downside is so much bigger given how risky it all feels, how perilous it all feels at the moment. And it’s heartbreaking to me because I love the arts and I want to be grabbed, right, when I go there. I just want to be excited. I want the case to be made for why I’m there instead of home reading a book or watching something on streaming.

Paul Jan Zdunek:
Right. But I think the, and I agree with you, I think there are less risks. And those who do it, do it in a calculated way, which is, I can’t underscore enough because just like you’re kind of bringing it back to the symphony, I mean, I hear this all the time, you know, we don’t want to do something new. We want to give them what sells, like what’s been selling over the last 10 years. Let’s do that again. Right. And to me, that’s not risk. That’s, but what, what David did and what we did at that organization, what I really mentor others to do is if you want to go from A to Z, don’t just go to Z, right? That’s a risk, but that’s not a calculated risk. That’s just crazy, right? Go A to C plus and then see the H minus and whatever. I mean, and that’s what you do. You build in new and where you want your audience to be. I mean, to me, art is like a curriculum. You know, you want to, if you want to get them to Z, take them there and help them along the way so they have something that’s familiar and they have something new, they have something in between. And I think a lot of organizations who are trying to fix themselves so quickly, try to go right to Z because they’re like, that’s where we need to be. We need to be at Z. Well, yes, but you can’t just go there and lose the core of your audience who’s been used to A for so, so long. So calculated risk is also is built into a curriculum that gets them to Z. And when they get to Z, they don’t even remember they were at A. It’s very organic. And especially a lot of organizations who are in crisis don’t want to take that organic approach. But to me, and that’s why the Symphony and the Pops sustained itself, because it did it in this way and still is very successful today because of it, because they built a foundation that they just kept building upon organically.

Lee Wochner:
I also want, as a playwright and director myself and a former producer, I always want the audience to be glad they came. And I’m not talking about catering to their tastes, which I think is what the sitcoms of the 1970s did pretty well. And they don’t interest me at all. But what I mean is it is a distinct experience that you could get only in that place at that time and not at home and not somewhere else. And so one of the things I used to say to you was, well, I can listen to classical music in my car, but we don’t want that. We want you to come to the Ambassador Auditorium or to the Pops out in the Arboretum and hear classical music there. And so we have to communicate that experience and we have to recognize.

That that can be a steep hill to climb. You have to drive there, you have to buy the tickets usually in advance. They’re not inexpensive for an arts organization, right? They’re not inexpensive tickets. You have to perhaps arrange a sitter. You had to go out to dinner first. You had to pay for parking, all of these other things. And so it had better be something that merited the visit.

Paul Jan Zdunek:
And it’s interesting because I hear the time effort and especially the money argument all the time. And then I look at what Dodgers tickets cost and what a beer or a hot dog costs at a Dodgers game. And so it’s not about the money, it’s about what do we value, right? It’s that value proposition that you talked about earlier. So again, arts organizations as we did,

Paul Jan Zdunek:
Okay, what is the value proposition? Is it just to come and sit in silence and listen to something that, as you said, you could listen to the radio or what are the things, why do people come to these organizations or come to these concerts? Certainly with the pops, it was because of the picnicking and the socializing, but we extended that because people want to socialize with other people. And so we did the same thing with the symphony. We created a symphony experience, a lounge where people would come and socialize and drink and eat and talk and talk beforehand, talk at intermission about what happened. And it’s about the experience. Again, going back to that branding, right? It’s not about being quiet. It’s this, and at a time, and this is where, you know, this creative problem solving, you have to, just like arts groups evolve, you have to look at what’s in the market right now, what’s happening, where’s…

What are you, what void are you filling? And at that time, and I still say today, even probably even more so there’s so many electronic options and virtual options that, you know, we started talking about, this is an oral experience, kind of like an oral spa. You know, you come away, come in here and get away from the world and get away from all the electronics, get away from instant messaging and just sit and just let it roll off of your, you know, roll up, roll off of you and just luxuriate it. Luxuriate in it. And that’s how we then worked with you and came up with the branding and marketing to show that. And so again, you have to be flexible. You have to understand the market. You have to understand your competition. You have to understand what you bring to the market, what you bring to this world at that moment in time. Because what worked 10 years ago is not going to work today, or even what worked quite frankly before COVID is not going to work today. So that’s where I think as much as I said earlier, the arts and nonprofits are creative. Sometimes that’s where they fall down the most. They don’t draw upon that creativity that actually got them started.

Lee Wochner:
The business creativity either, in a way, is partially what you’re saying.

Paul Jan Zdunek:
Right, right. How to solve for X.

Lee Wochner:
So I went to the launch event for your book, which you may recall, which was a load of fun. And I enjoyed the book. Can you tell us a little bit, like, what is the topic line of your book? What would you say?

Paul Jan Zdunek:
It’s about intuitive leadership. Yeah, the title is Cowboys and Conductors because I wrote it with a cowboy and I was a conductor. And we basically found that…

Lee Wochner:
Cowboys and Conductors.

Paul Jan Zdunek:
The way my co -author Dustin worked with horses is how I worked with musicians at the time and how I still work with people, which is really being holistic in the approach of communication and approach of who they are using a lot of emotional intelligence and not talking through and using sort of your normal channels of communication and understanding people, but really being present, meeting them where they are, giving them empowerment. So working with people, and leading intuitively is sort of the, and also what we talked about earlier, which is finding that foundation, finding that centeredness so that you can then be much more, you know, work in this world of gray. It’s, you know, the subtitle is Cultivating Gray Leadership, which is, you know, how do you live in this world of gray? And you do it by having this centeredness to you that we talk about throughout the book.

Lee Wochner:
So emotional intelligence is something that artists and nonprofit people are really good at. Is this something that when you consult with the corporate sector, is this something you find that they need more of?

Paul Jan Zdunek:
Absolutely, because when I find organizations and we’ll kind of pivot now to for -profit organizations, the two things that I find that are at the top of people’s lists of organizations that are flatlined or are in trouble is one communication. There’s not enough of it. It’s the wrong kind. It’s not transparent. It’s strange.

Paul Jan Zdunek:
And then the second thing is I have the responsibility but I don’t have the authority, which is the sort of this empowerment, this letting people manage themselves and figuring out how to then manage the failures and manage them through this ever -changing approach to work, you know. And so I think that, yes, I think that for -profits could use more of that sort of people skills.

Paul Jan Zdunek:
As a matter of fact, I’m teaching now an executive course at UCLA, teaching it to STEM executives, you know, people who are building rockets and figuring out all kinds of things that I never think about. But they come to the campus for a week to figure out how to communicate with people because now they’re managers and they’re leaders and they have to inspire others. And it’s not about your technical skills. It’s about all those other things that is actually more important because at the end of the day, we’re all human beings no matter what our job is, no matter what organization we’re running or what widgets we’re selling. And if you don’t have the right people, if they don’t feel empowered, if they don’t feel engaged, then you’re also not going to be successful no matter how awesome your product is.

Lee Wochner:
I read Walter Isaacson’s recent biography of Elon Musk, and I wish we could get Mr. Musk to take your class. I think it would be of help to him. Not a high emotional intelligence over there.

Paul Jan Zdunek:
Well, I’ll pass on commenting. Otherwise, I’ll wind up on Twitter being troll Twitter.

Lee Wochner:
Certainly a lot of success and achievement, and I mean positive achievement for all of us, but then there’s the dark side. So that was it was interesting. My feelings about Mr. Musk are complicated. So.

Paul Jan Zdunek:
I guess the same thing about Steve Jobs in a way. I sometimes, you know, those who are there to do great things. I mean, I actually, I just saw something yesterday about how Musk is now trying to help, you know, people who are paralyzed and get their minds to work and do things that are extraordinary. So I, you know, in all of the mad scientist type of approach, there are some great ideas that are changing the world.

Lee Wochner:
That’s actually one of the focuses of the book and a very interesting chapter. And yeah, I find in the circles I’m in, I’m more of a defender of Elon Musk than the other side. And so my feelings are complicated. I have to recognize longer term, a lot of what he’s done will benefit us. And then shorter term, a lot of it troubles me.

So Paul, you’re up to a lot. What’s next for you? What are you working on now? What are you working on next?

Paul Jan Zdunek:
Well, I am going to be in the next few weeks giving a TEDx talk on what I hope to be my next book, Demons and Drivers, about going deeper into what is our defining driver and how has that developed, what does that come from, and how does that then guide our professional and personal lives and decisions and relationships. And like I said, hopefully I’m writing a book shortly after that based on that. Teaching at UCLA, I also am now teaching at Johns Hopkins, again, executives and alums on nonlinear career journey, which is what I’ve had, kind of what we’ve been talking about today, which is, you know, you can walk through doors and be successful and you don’t have to take a linear path to be successful.

Lee Wochner:
What’s the best way for people to reach you?

Paul Jan Zdunek:
My website is pauljanzdunek.com or on LinkedIn. And I think those are the two easy ways, Jan being J -A -N. I’m sure they’ll see that or know that. And yeah, I am a big believer in connecting with those who are looking for some help, for some mentorship. I had some great mentors along the way and great colleagues like yourself who’ve given me advice and put me in successful directions and I hope to you know spend the rest of my living days giving back.

Lee Wochner:
If there’s one thing that you hope people take away from this conversation, what would it be?

Paul Jan Zdunek:
Never let impossible win.

Lee Wochner:
I love that. I’m gonna put that on my tombstone, not anytime soon. I’m gonna put that on my tombstone. I totally love that. Well, Paul, this has been a load of fun. I really appreciate it. And I think now I owe you a lunch probably. So we should do that.

Paul Jan Zdunek:
I think we’re even, but let’s get together anyway. Thank you.

Lee Wochner:
All right, well thanks so much.

Jaclyn Uloth:
Thanks for listening! We’re glad you came. That’s What C! Said is produced by Lisa Pham and engineered by Joe Curet. It’s available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. Please like and follow the show. Visit Counterintuity.com to sign up and learn more.