Modern PR

Beverly Durham:
I think it’s more imperative today than ever that companies behaviors match their beliefs and their messaging.

Lee Wochner:
Everybody loves a good story. But somehow when it comes to the organization we work with, we get a little tongue tied as we try to figure out the key points and the way to present them. Also, what we can use to tell stories has changed. TikTok, blogs, texts, emails, FaceTime, podcasts, these are all recent additions to the storytelling dynamic. Misuse any of them or find yourself in deep water and say the wrong thing and you might get mocked or canceled when all you wanted to do was get your message out. In a career stretching back 30 years, public relations expert Beverly Durham has helped organizations as diverse as Walt Disney Company, Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater, Ronald McDonald House, Wells Fargo, various foundations and more get their story out and make it land.

So, how should you go about telling your story? What should you do if you find yourself in a communications crisis? We’ll talk about that and more on this episode of That’s What C Said.

Jaclyn Uloth:
Welcome to the podcast that lightens the tension when things sort of get hard…

That’s What C! Said, the Counterintuity podcast, featuring interviews with leaders and doers who have helped to make our world a better place through their actions — and especially through marketing, communications, and embracing change. Here’s host Lee Wochner.

Lee Wochner:
Beverly, thank you for joining us today. Nice to speak with you.

Beverly Durham: 
I’m glad to be here, Lee. Thanks for the invitation. Excited to talk.

Lee Wochner:
Oh, well, you bet. So let’s establish the groundwork if we can. So these days, you know, things have changed enormously over the past couple, few decades. These days, what is it that a publicist does, let’s say for nonprofits, public agencies, things like that? What is a what’s a publicist’s role?

Beverly Durham: 
I think, I honestly, Leigh, I look at myself broader than a publicist. I think publicists are traditionally media outlets are really, you know, where they focus their time. I look at myself more bigger public relations in that our role is really helping an organization connect with any of its stakeholders internally, externally, media, elected officials, the people that they provide services to other influencers. So I think, you know, PR has grown to really talk about what public relations, helping an organization relate to all the publics it interacts with.

Lee Wochner:
Ah, you outed me, you caught me. You know, I’m an old theater guy, and I was using publicist interchangeably with public relations, but thank you, you are correct. You were in public relations, which is a wider portfolio. Okay, so let’s talk about that for a moment. So if you are engaged in public relations for what is an organization that serves the public, public agencies, nonprofits, it’s such.

Lee Wochner:
What does that role entail in coordinating with these stakeholders and such?

Beverly Durham: 
So I think that the key thing is helping to create the narrative and helping an organization express who they are, connecting with their various publics, their various constituents, being relevant to what’s important to them. From a nonprofit, you might speak differently to those you’re donating who are potential donors than those who you’re providing services to, than those who want to use the people or access the people you’re providing services to, right? But it’s really helping an organization create that narrative about who they are and how they touch people and how they impact the community.

Lee Wochner:
Okay, so you’ve been recognized for your ability to help organizations gain a deeper understanding of who they are and what they do and how they make an impact in their community and society overall. How do organizations gain that understanding of who they are?

Beverly Durham: 
It starts with having open conversations, right? And speaking to your various constituents, understanding what it is and why it is donors wanna support your mission. It’s understanding the people who access your services or receive your services, what your services mean to them, what’s the impact, how it has bettered their lives. How has it helped them grow. It is helping them understand that they have a role, I think, in the broader society and what that role is. One of my favorite, and maybe one of my favorite, and I think a lot of people favorite sayings, it’s from Maya Angelou. People will always remember how you make them feel. And so I think, one of my roles is really helping an organization place, put that narrative together to really understand how they make people feel. And if we can connect with people emotionally, no matter where they are in their relationship with an organization, you’re more likely to be successful and meet your organizational goals.

Lee Wochner:
Completely coincidentally, the new Counterintuity website launches today and that Maya Angelou quote is prominently mentioned on that website. Isn’t that funny? Yeah.

Beverly Durham: 
So you get it, right? It really is people walk away with that feeling. I’ll tell you, I worked a long time with Ronald McDonald House Charities. And one of my very first projects for them was producing a video to be used at a fundraising event. And I met the first family I interviewed was a young boy who was having a heart transplant.

Beverly Durham: 
And that young boy, while he was waiting for the transplant, he was one of the most spirited, kind of very nasty kids. Like he has had this attitude, right? But talking to his parents and understanding what they had gone through to get their child here and what they were, the anxiety that they were feeling to get to the point of the transplant and was that going to be but really thinking I remember that day of how that family and that child made me feel. And it sticks with me to this day. And that was, I hate to say it, but 30 years ago. It was 30 years ago that I did that. And when I think about all the organizations I’ve worked with, or I donate personally to our volunteer with, it’s really because those organizations have touched my heart and those organizations have really made me feel deeply about their mission and what they’re trying to accomplish.

Lee Wochner:
Years ago, one of the boards that I was sitting on at the time did a tree planting initiative. Excuse me. And so you could sponsor a tree. And believe me, I sponsored a tree, right? And so we planted, I think it was 100 trees in a park near here. And it so happens that one of the ways I have to drive pretty much every day now, I drive right past that park. And it’s been 10, 12 years and those trees are big glorious trees now. And it just makes me feel so good that wow, that was like the best 100, 200 bucks I’d ever donated because there’s that tree and there’s all the other trees.

Beverly Durham: 
You can see it. That is really tangible. And then you probably can see families or kids enjoying the shade from the trees in the park or whatever. So again, having an impact and something that has stuck with you for quite a long time. And you get to see the benefits of it on a daily basis.

Lee Wochner:
This thing you’re doing, I asked how you gained a deeper understanding of who they are. It sounds similar to what we do when we start with client strategy. We go through the who, what, where, when, why, and how. Who is your organization as a person? Why do people care? What does your organization do as a person? How do they do that, et cetera, et cetera? Your process seems similar, but now it’s about public relations.

Beverly Durham: 
It’s similar and we like to break up the groups. And we wanna see not only what they think about themselves internally, but what people externally. So when I do my process, I might also do an audit of media outlets that have done stories about that organization to see what they’re saying about them externally. I might look at social media profiles. Either people who have mentioned the organization or even just mentioned the cause or the programming that the organization is to get a real sense of what the general consumer or public view is of that organization and the issue they’re trying to address. But it’s also talking to folks internally, right? The people who are providing the services, what is it that they think are their unique selling positions? What do they think?

are the things that set them apart? And does that differ from what the public thinks? And if it does, we have a little bit of issue, right? We have a gap that we need to close, I think, but really helps to allow you to be strategic in developing key messages and making sure you have a North Star where all your messaging, all your communication really points to, you know.

There are so many organizations out there, right? And we’re all being bombarded daily for, asked for different organizations, you know, what is it that’s gonna help us break through the clutter? And one of those things, you know, I always think about, there’s an old ad, you probably know this better than I do, but there’s this old advertising adage that, you know, people need to hear a message 12 times before it starts to seed with them. Well, that means, you’re not going to say as a PR person, it’s not like I’m placing an ad and you can tell that same 30 second story all the time. But I do need to make sure that every story we tell ladders up to kind of the same umbrella message. So when they hear it’s like, oh, I’ve heard that before. Maybe not in these words, but I’ve heard about that organization before. Oh, I remember that organization did XYZ, even though I’m telling a different story. But it’s all making sure that. That we have that North Star, that umbrella idea that everything we do ladders up to that.

Lee Wochner:
So really what you’re talking about is brand identity because there’s a brand identity for the organization. Are we in keeping with the brand identity? Are we acting the way that brand identity should act and that people believe it acts? And when there’s a mismatch, let’s say when you are manufacturing planes and the door flies off, maybe it’s not such a good thing.

Beverly Durham: 
Maybe. Yes, they are. They absolutely are.

Lee Wochner:
Maybe they’re having a little problem with that story these days. Wow.

Lee Wochner:
So when you do this work, what are the outputs? What does Beverly Durham  provide when she’s doing this?

Beverly Durham: 
I provide like a sentiment analysis, right? Media analysis sentiment for both media, for social, for internal audience as well. Looking at, you know, is it positive, neutral, negative? Identifying verbatims that really understand how people really kind of feel being able to articulate for a client, what it is that consumers feel. And by having this deep dive, doing kind of a SWOT analysis, for lack of a better term at this moment, but really kind of analyzing that and saying, this is how people see your organization, and how does that match up with your mission? and how can we help to either amplify or bring your mission and consumers, our customers, our public’s thoughts about your organization closer together.

Lee Wochner:
Okay, so I’m going to ask a purposely naive question. It’s purposely naive so you don’t think I’m a dummy, okay? Is it important doing this kind of x-ray on your own organization? I mean, does it really matter, Beverly?

Beverly Durham: 
I do you think it does, Lee. And the reason I do, like I mentioned a little bit earlier, there are so many organizations out there that are vying for your attention, vying for your dollars, et cetera. For lack of a better, you don’t want to just throw things that stick to a wall and hope something sticks with consumers. You don’t want to just throw willy nilly. By doing this deep dive, by taking this this x-ray approach and looking really deeply into who you are, it really can help you develop that, like I talk about that North Star, so that everything you do helps you reach your goal. Is it an aware, whether it’s an awareness goal, whether it’s a funding goal, whether it’s a sales goal, whether it’s a use of whatever that goal is, right?

Lee Wochner:
Mm-hmm.

Beverly Durham: 
You want to make sure that all your work ladders up to that. And if you don’t do that deep dive to understand how you’re going to engage people and connect with people, particularly in a nonprofit world, connect people emotionally, then your work, you’re never going to reach your goal or you know, you’re never going to get close to your

Lee Wochner:
So let’s talk about change. We’re in a period of change and change in the ethos and what’s expected from organizations and such. And you brought up the North Star several times. And of course, the North Star is something that one can navigate against, right? Constellations and North Stars, one uses for navigational purposes. There’s a school of thought that you should always identify your core values because when you have core values, then you understand how you’ll behave and how you won’t. And I remember that my eldest brother said to me that when his first child was born, my niece, Lisa, he started asking himself, well, is that what Lisa’s father should do? Right, is this, you know, and so now he was a parent. And as a parent myself, I relate to that. Was this something that Lex’s dad should do, right? Or Emma’s dad, I mean, I have three kids. So this thing you’re talking about, it kind of correlates with we do this and we don’t do that. And we do this because we’ve established these principles of who we are and these elements of our identity and we don’t do that. We are a professional, I’m going to keep going there, plane manufacturing company that flies people around. We don’t create planes with doors that blow up.

Beverly Durham: 
Correct. I think companies, organizations need to have a purpose. And that purpose needs to be built into who they are as an organization. And again, you know, throwing spitballs, there’s another word I want to use but I won’t use it on here.

Lee Wochner:
Okay, monkey poo. Monkey poo. Ha ha ha.

Beverly Durham: 
Monkey poo. There you go. And hoping, you know, just throwing it against the wall.

Lee Wochner:
Mm-hmm.

Beverly Durham: 
We’re in an environment where information is readily available, right? And people need a reason to believe in a company, to use the services, to whatever it is, because information is readily available as compared to when you and I both entered into the industry, right? There’s a handful of places where you could get information. If your ethos doesn’t match with what you’re delivering, you’re going to lose business. That company who had a door fall off of an airplane, they’re in deep doo-doo right now, right?

Lee Wochner:
Yeah, they got a problem.

Beverly Durham: 
They have a problem. And I believe contracts are being canceled. The future of the company is being questioned. And so, you know, and that’s something we don’t know why it happened yet. I don’t think we truly know, you know, what the reason was and it could be something that had, it could be something that they, what we know they didn’t do it intentionally, but it could be that they had all the processes in place and it still happened anyway. We don’t know at this point. But imagine a company who says one thing and does another. And in the world of diversity, equity, and inclusion, that’s happening a lot, right? All these companies say we’re committed to DEI and equity, fair pay for female, for women and all of that stuff, but yet their actual their actual work shows something differently, and people in the company come out and say they’re doing something differently that doesn’t line up with their messaging, those companies are not going to survive, and they’re gonna lose their employees, they’re gonna lose their ability to deliver whatever they wanna deliver to their consumers. So, you know, the fact that people can find out things, is so readily and at your fingertips 24 seven. I think it’s more imperative today than ever that companies behaviors match their beliefs and their messaging.

Lee Wochner:
Well, you’re it’s irrefutable. I mean you cannot in the in the digital social media age Say one thing and do another I mean it just even when you are in high political office, it seems you cannot say one thing and do another because People will be on to you pretty quickly You know, they I want to go back to the core values thing Again, because what I what I do like about it is it’s such a shorthand Because a lot of this other stuff can be complicated and who are we and what do we do? And when clients have their core values or we talk to them and trying to write a brief about who they are, if they don’t have core values, we’ll try to propose some. And the same applies here at Counterintuity. Like one of our core values is committed. We are committed to client success. And if we’re not gonna be committed to it, we’re not gonna take it on. The clients hired us. We have an ethical duty to be committed. And we’ve got four core values. The other three are can do. Yeah, we can do that. We’re yes and people. And clever and creative. And if it’s not creative, I mean, there’s, we just didn’t think hard enough. I mean, there’s just some, there’s a creative way to do this because it has to break through, which is the other part of what you’re saying. Now if you are let’s say some sort of safety organization, right? Well, it’s gotta be safe. If you’re a nonprofit working on DEI issues, then you’d better be walking the talk of DEI as well. And that’s really your point, because there cannot be a misalignment. So let me ask you this. There used to be a school of thought that the only corporate responsibility was to make a profit.

Beverly Durham: 
Correct.

Lee Wochner:
And interestingly, what I’ve seen and we’ve all seen, I think, in recent years, and a couple decades, but it’s accelerating, we’ve developed a different perspective on that. Now there seems to be an expanded portfolio of expected corporate responsibility. What do you think has changed that has led to that?

Beverly Durham: 
I think going back to citizen journalism, going back to everybody has a voice and everybody has a POV and everybody is an expert or can be an expert, right? And I think it goes to people thinking, you know. There’s making money is one thing, but if you’re not leaving your community and your society and your neighbors better for that, then it’s not a value. What you’re offering is not a value to me as a consumer. Again, and also because we’re in most industries, most industries are mature, meaning that there are dozens, if not thousands of competitors in every category. And what’s gonna differentiate you from everybody else? Well, you can differentiate, well, we’re just about making the money and not doing good for community. But I think people want to work with our support companies and organizations that are benefiting their community and benefiting society. I think that to me could be a deal breaker, right? And when you look at all the divestment conversations that are happening right now, it’s because the companies that they’re asking to divest from all they care about is profits. And I think we’re gonna see from Gen Z, I hate to say that they will be our saviors of us all, but I think they are expecting companies to do more. I think they’re expecting organizations to do more and be more and support more. Again, it goes to this thing called World Wide Web where everybody can have an opinion, post their opinion and influence people’s behaviors.

Lee Wochner:
When I was teaching marketing at Woodbury University, one of the things I noticed was that in the dean’s office of the business school, there were all these signs about the social responsibility that’s now expected and that their future leaders have a responsibility to be social leaders as well. And so I agree with you. I think that dynamic is just coming more quickly. And one of our vendors gave us a new account manager. And he is half my age, Beverly. And I’m a young man. I’m not gonna tell you, but I’m a young man. He’s half my age. And I’m so impressed with him. And he told me that his girlfriend’s going into the Peace Corps and all this other stuff. And he’s determined to please us. And I just, I was taken with his energy and I’m proud of my own three kids. So I get where you’re coming from. Let’s take a short commercial break. But when we come back, Beverly and I will be talking about crisis communications and what you should do if you find yourself in a communications crisis. Stick around.

Jaclyn Uloth:
Hi, this is Jaclyn with Counterintuity.

Being compliant with the Americans with Disability Act on your website is the right thing to do, so that everyone can visit and use your website. But did you know that it’s also a legal requirement? By ensuring your website meets ADA compliance standards, you make it more accessible to people with disabilities, improving their user experience and expanding your audience. And by complying with ADA regulations, you can avoid legal issues and protect your organization from expensive lawsuits.

Check out the Counterintuity blog for more on this and other important website compliance topics. Or give us a call. We’re always happy to help.

Lee Wochner:
And we are back with public relations and crisis communications expert Beverly Durham. So let’s talk about crisis communications. What is or are crisis communications?

Beverly Durham: 
Well, as we keep talking about the airplane that had an issue recently, but crisis are situations that can negatively impact an organization, generally external, but it can happen internally too. But it’s really any potential negative, something that can have a potential negative impact on a company.

Lee Wochner:
My family is mostly from Johnstown, Pennsylvania. And Johnstown, Pennsylvania has a history of floods. And my father, it’s my mother’s family that’s from there, but they major, major floods throughout the 20th century. And my father told a story about a major nonprofit we know of that goes in and rescues people and helps them.

that came to town and started selling some supplies and blankets back in the 30s or whatever. Yeah, and he hadn’t forgotten it. And every time their name came up, he just like spit or something. And it’s funny how that perception never goes away. And so to this day, I mean, I’ve never been in a flood in Johnston, Pennsylvania. I don’t know if even if that story is true, but I just want to donate a penny to them. And because the word of mouth in my family is,

Lee Wochner:
They were not helpful.

Beverly Durham: 
can impact an organization’s reputation, obviously, for 90 years, right? For quite a long time, and a crisis, if not handled effectively, can really impact the stability and the future of an organization.

Lee Wochner:
You’ve worked with a lot of big brands and important charities. Have there ever been instances where you’ve worked with a notable group, a name we recognize, but please don’t name them, and you had to tell them, here’s what you’ve been doing, and it’s not good, and you need to stop?

Beverly Durham: 
I have, and those conversations are really difficult to have, and you learn different ways of messaging because it may not land the first time and may have to go back several times to have that conversation in different ways and demonstrate different ways that it’s impacting an organization and how people are seeing them. There are people that don’t want to hear that they’re doing anything wrong. So sometimes it takes quite a long time. Sometimes they might just cut you off and say, we’re not going to talk about it. But sometimes, you know, it just takes tenacity on a consultant’s end, you know, to help them see it in different angles where something might actually land and make them rethink how they’re how they’re doing business.

Lee Wochner:
Does it ever work to try to offset the bad story with some other good story?

Beverly Durham: 
Not if the story has nothing to do with the bad story, right? When you have a crisis, you need to deal with that issue. You can’t say, well, because, well, it’s okay that we’re doing this because we’re doing this way over on the other side, right? And people see through that. Again, you know, information readily available. If you’re being criticized for something like that, you have to be proactive. You have to be open to conversation and you have to be transparent. Transparency is key today in today’s environment. And so the story has to, whatever story you tell or messaging you deliver has to be, has to tie into that story that’s causing the crisis or causing the issue. So what I’m hearing is, if you got into a crisis communication situation. You have to own it. I’ve seen so many companies where the company won’t even acknowledge the issue. Or if they acknowledge it’s superficial. Again, going back to people remembering how you make them feel in the times of crisis, you need to make them feel a CEO has a responsibility and senior leadership has a responsibility to own up and say, and be human, and say that, you know, we feel terrible about this and be honest about it. We’ll get to the bottom of it, figure out how it happened, why it happened, but they have to show empathy for the people who are being affected by it.

Lee Wochner:
So job number one with this, if I understand you correctly, is to say, we hear you. We hear you, we’re listening, we’re looking into this. Yeah, okay. You can’t just set it aside. Yeah.

Beverly Durham: 
Mm-hmm.

Beverly Durham: 
acknowledge the issue. Correct. Can’t put your head in the sand. I had a client that their POV is, we’re so big, it doesn’t matter. We don’t have to answer that question. We’re still going to deliver our messages.

You know, that might’ve worked in the eighties, the seventies and the eighties before social media, the worldwide web, everything, but you have to be part of the conversation and if you’re not part of the conversation, the conversation is going to happen anyway. Wouldn’t you rather you be part of the conversation and help direct it and provide input in it rather than somebody else who knows nothing about your business, nothing about your organization creating that narrative for you. I got a little passionate there, but. I’m sorry.

Lee Wochner:
Well said, well said. That’s truly the heart of the matter. Wouldn’t you, you have to be part of the conversation. Wouldn’t you rather be part of the conversation and help develop it than be subject to the conversation others are having about you? That is exactly right.

Beverly Durham: 
Mm-hmm.

Beverly Durham: 
And if you take too long to be joined that conversation, that conversation is the train has left the station and it is the ball is going down, the avalanche is going down and the ball is getting bigger and the conversation is getting bigger and it’s gonna be harder for you to come pull back if you wait too long to be part of that conversation. So own it, own it, transparency, own it.

Lee Wochner:
Are there differences in how a non-profit should publicly behave versus a commercial enterprise?

Beverly Durham: 
I think there’s, I really don’t think so. I think they really all, again, going back to that transparency and openness, obviously in any situation, you’re gonna protect proprietary information. You’re going to protect individual’s privacy. You’re not going to do that.

But at the end of the day, it really is being open and honest and transparent when it comes to addressing a crisis and a situation. Making sure that your constituents, your publics understand that you’ve shown the empathy for the situation and you’re committed to suss out what happened, understand what happened, figure out.

how you can address it moving forward so something like that doesn’t happen again.

Lee Wochner:
If people find themselves in a PR nightmare, what should they do?

Beverly Durham: 
First thing is to breathe and not react, right? Generally, they’re emotional situations and you just wanna go out and say, that’s not right or disagree with it. That’s your first inclination. But I think you want to take the time to breathe. Make sure you understand the issue. Make sure you’ve gotten initially understand internally and externally how you got to where you are before you make a big gesture or make a statement or do something because your initial reaction may not actually be the reason why you’re in the pickle in the first place. You’re only seeing you might be responding to an action rather than the actual situation.

Lee Wochner:
My son is in law school, my eldest, and he called me yesterday, and he didn’t text first. He called me, so I’m like, oh, I’ll pick that up, right? Like, something going on here. And he was very hot on the collar about something that happened, something that a professor had done. And he wanted to know what to do, and I said, the first thing you do is nothing for at least 15 minutes, preferably a whole day. You sleep on it and do nothing, right? Maybe you gather some information. I do agree with you. This was not the best behavior from her but you know, what can you learn from this? You can have a conversation letter later, but first do nothing. And so he said well, that’s why I’m calling you So thank you He wanted reinforcement about because he was very upset about this and I’ve been there, right? and then so we have a nice conversation and then About 20 minutes goes by and he texts me and he says the professor just apologized See, there’s a benefit to hanging on hang on a little bit

Beverly Durham: 
Mm-hmm.

Lee Wochner:
She knows she should have done that. It’s just better now.

Beverly Durham: 
Yep, and he didn’t put her in a position to feel attacked, right?

Lee Wochner:
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah. And I said to him, you know, I, you know, many years ago, I think I used to be a bit of a hothead, but not anymore. And I, like anybody else, I can get up ahead of steam. But in 15 minutes, it’s all dissipated because life is short. And I like people and I want to work with them. So I’ll take a walk around the block. I know that’s not going to help Boeing. But for me, it’s like just waiting that 15 minutes, and then I’m able to approach it rationally. And so your response of breathe first is spot on. So if someone finds themselves in a communications crisis, you said they can breathe, and then they can say, we hear you, and et cetera. Is there a way to determine whether, let’s say, a nonprofit can handle it internally or they need to reach out to a professional? Is there a pivot point there?

Beverly Durham:
Well, I think part of the key, a key part that we haven’t talked about is the crisis plan. And I think every organization needs to take the time before a crisis happened to kind of develop the plan, and have protocols, put the protocols in place so that when a crisis happens, everybody in the organization knows how to respond. Not messaging, but just how to react to it. And if you work with a professional to help put that plan together, because I think that would be a key place for a professional to be, to help you put the plan together, then you may not necessarily need a professional when the crisis happens because you have a roadmap of how to respond to these types of things. Or you might bring in the professional, help you articulate messaging for that specific situation. What I do think is important and where, and it may not be an outside agency, it might be an internal comms person, is the buffer that comms person kind of provides the buffer between senior leadership and the public. And being able to have somebody who can gather what it is the media is looking for, the press is looking for, what their point of view is and be the intermediary until leadership is ready to make that announcement or make those statements. I do think that’s an important role for a professional communications PR. Internal or external I think is important to have. But you know I think a well-crafted crisis plan from the beginning a, gives people that time to breathe, right? Because we have this blueprint and this manual that we can go to that says, okay, if this happens, we do this and then we do this and then we do this. Because you also, there’s also that idea that, I don’t want the media to end up calling or for a leadership person to pick up the phone and be on the phone, not realizing what’s going on, right? As when I’ve represented clients, I’ve always struggled with giving out direct contact information to a client, to a media. If it’s something I’ve set up and we’re doing an interview, I still would rather us call the media than the media call the client because that now becomes part of their Rolodex. I have this person’s number and I can call them directly. And I will tell you, I had a client once who KBC called, something had happened at the company. KBC called the owner directly and the director ended up lying because he didn’t know what was, he was nervous, anxious. It’s like, why is this person calling me? And then when he asked the question, the owner ended up lying. And I had to go back and try to fix the situation. So I think there’s a key role for some sort of buffer, internal, external communications person. But at the end of the day, a well-crafted media arc, crisis communications, crisis response plan, and having a crisis response team, et cetera, will help any organization. I think that’s something every organization should make sure they’ve done.

Lee Wochner:
I have a background in journalism. I was a newspaper editor and reporter and the worst is being lied to. And I feel that way now in every aspect of my life. I mean, once you lie to me, I just can’t trust you anymore. And when I was a journalist and I could tell you lied to me, I would just go after you. I mean, then I would own you.

Beverly Durham: 
And ABC, the assignment editor called me after it’s like Beverly, I just talked to, and they lied to me. I’m like, ah, you can always tell. You can always tell.

Lee Wochner:
Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. And you can always tell. Yeah. Yeah, no, the door did not blow off. Beverly, today and so I could talk to you for hours. I mean, it’s just fascinating. And I you’re very smart about how things have changed and you have to be honest all the time because people will catch you anyway. And it’s good to be honest. So today in 2024, if you were going to give leaders with nonprofits or public agencies, three must do bits of advice. Here’s the baseline of what you should do. What would you say?

Beverly Durham: 
I’d say the first thing would be to create this compelling narrative about your organization and the impact that you have so that you can connect with your community. So what’s that emotional storytelling that you have that is going to make people want to support your organization, be part of your organization, whatever it, volunteer, donate, whatever it might be.

Second thing is about building relationships, right? You can’t be transactional anymore. It’s like only going to people, going to media and press when you need something you want a story told. How can you build a relationship with those reporters so that when you do have a story to tell that they’re more apt to tell it for you? Making sure you understand the press’s beats, the types of stories they have to cover. And making sure that when you reach out to them, that you’re tailoring your stories, your pitches to what is important to them, right? How can you make their life easier, right? The media world has changed, press has changed. They have very little time to delve into the stories like they used to. So when you work with them, if you’ve built a relationship, how can you make their jobs easier? And be able to basically hand them something on the platter that they can easily publish with adding in their POVs. And then the other thing is don’t be afraid to utilize and leverage social media to amplify your stories, your messaging and engaging the community that way, finding ways to help your community become advocates for you. Giving them opportunities to tell their stories about why they’ve interacted with you, why they’ve engaged with you, what you mean to them. So three tips, that was three. Can I ask the fourth one? I’ll add the fourth one, I said this earlier, create a crisis plan. Make sure you have a plan in place early on.

Lee Wochner:
Yeah, yeah. That’s just smart. That’s just very smart. What’s the best way for people to connect with Beverly Durham ?

Beverly Durham: 
Well, you would think that I would be smart enough to have an easily said email address, but it’s not. So the best way actually probably could go to my website, which is BLDCOMS. So B-L-D-C-O-M-M-S.com. And then my email address is Beverly.Durham at BLDCOMS.com.

Lee Wochner:
Terrific. Beverly, a real pleasure speaking with you yet again. It’s always a joy.

Beverly Durham: 
Thank you, Lee. I’ll tell you, as a PR person, I’m used to being behind the scenes. That’s where I’m most comfortable. And I prep everybody else to do this type of thing. So you invited me to be in front and sharing my point of view has been really a lot of fun if not a little bit uncomfortable at the beginning.

Lee Wochner:
Yeah.

Lee Wochner:
Oh, that’s really great and very humble of you. No, you’ve been absolutely terrific. So, and with lots of useful information. So thank you so much.

Beverly Durham: 
You’re welcome.

Jaclyn Uloth:
Thanks for listening! We’re glad you came. That’s What C! Said is produced by Lisa Pham and engineered by Joe Curet. It’s available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. Please like and follow the show. Visit Counterintuity.com to sign up and learn more.